FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE MEETING
HEARING

Wednesday 10th September 2008
__________________________________

 

Prayers were said by Celsus.

 

Mr Chairman:  Honourable Members of the FRC, Provincial Premiers and the Lord Mayor of Honiara, Clerk and Officers of the Committee Secretariat, Stakeholders and members of the Public, welcome to the first public hearing of the Foreign Relations Committee.  As you all know, this is the first of a series of hearings that this Committee will undertake in carrying out its enquiry into and review of matters relating to the Regional Assistance Mission to Solomon Islands (RAMSI). 
Firstly, I would like to express the deep gratitude of my Committee to Provincial Premiers for responding to our request for you to appear before the Committee as witnesses.  Thank you for accepting our invitation.  This hearing was brought forward because most of the provincial premiers are currently transiting in Honiara and my Committee did not want to miss the opportunity to hear from you as early as possible in the enquiry process.  The Premier for Temotu Province sent his apologies since as you know he is hosting the Premier’s Conference.  The Premier for Malaita Province also sent his apologies I am informed that he had returned to his province to turn to urgent business.  We will of course give an opportunity to both Premiers later during this inquiry to present his views to this Committee. 
Before we start, it would be helpful for both for the witnesses and the public for me to run through what this Parliamentary inquiry is all about and to explain certain procedural matters that you might find useful during this hearing. 
I would like to start with some general comments about Parliamentary committees, their functions and Committee Hearing Procedures. Parliamentary Committees are established under the Standing Orders of Parliament and carry out specific functions mandated to each committee by Parliament.  These committees are in effect extensions of Parliament which, unlike Parliament itself, have the capacity to inquiry deeply into issues and go to the people and hear directly from the people about public matters that affect their lives.  This Committee the Foreign Relations Committee is one of five standing committees established by our Parliament.  Our functions, in a nutshell, centre around matters relating to Foreign Affairs, Foreign Policy and Relations.  One of our specific functions is to examine and report on the management of foreign assistance to Solomon Islands. 
As you would know from the material our Secretariat has provided to you, this Committee has been tasked by Parliament to inquire into, review and report on the Facilitation of International Assistance Notice 2003.  This reference to the Committee was moved by the Prime Minister and passed by Parliament by way of a resolution on a 24th July 2008.  The Notice which we will which we are to look into was published by the Governor General on 23rd July 2003 as required by the Facilitation of International Assistance Act 2003.  That Act became effective on making of the Notice.  With the Act in place, the Solomon Islands Government then entered into an international Agreement with the various neighbouring countries on the 24th July 2003 allowing what became as RAMSI to enter and operate in Solomon Islands.  This Agreement is specifically referred to in the Notice. 
In terms of review, quite apart from Parliament’s constitutional powers to make, amend or repeal any Act, the Facilitation Act specifically provides that Parliament must be given an opportunity once each year to review the Notice.  This year, Parliament, in accordance with the government’s wishes, referred the matter to the Committee to inquire into and review the Notice.  As I have earlier indicated, the review of the Notice effectively results in a review of RAMSI and its operations.  This is because the Notice refers to the countries participating in RAMSI, the public purpose for which RAMSI is in the country, the Agreement which facilitated RAMSI’s presence and of course the Act which governs it.  As such, I will allow submissions and views on any of these matters. 
By the end of our inquiry and review of the Notice, it is expected that this Committee will be in a position to report to Parliament on all matters relevant to the Notice.  That report will make recommendations based on evidence presented to the Committee from witnesses throughout the country and through written submissions received by the Committee.  Such evidence will be tabled together with our report.  This Committee will make recommendations to Parliament and through it to the Government and RAMSI for action. 
Perhaps I should clarify at this point that this Committee after reporting to Parliament does not have power, beyond the power of sensible and reasoned recommendations supported by the public, to force the Government or RAMSI to take any particular action.  However, it is expected if this Committee does its work well and makes effective and sensible recommendations they will be taken up by all parties and Parliament and this committee will certainly monitor that process. 
Before I conclude and allow the hearing proper to commence, may I remind witnesses that what you say in this hearing, is protected by parliamentary privilege and cannot be later used against you in any legal proceedings whatsoever. Because of the strength of this privilege, this Committee expects all witnesses to ensure that their answers are truthful and confined to matters relevant to the terms of reference and questions asked by members. Providing false evidence to the Committee is contempt of the Committee which Parliament may act on. Witness should also not reflect or comment unfairly or defame others.  The privilege that is provided by Parliament to witnesses must be respected and used wisely.  I trust that as law abiding citizens with the common aim to contribute to the good governance of this country, witnesses would testify with a clear conscience and a good heart. 
By now you would have noted the presence of One News and the Solomon Islands Broadcasting Corporation.  I wish to advise that all public hearings of this Committee during the inquiry, today’s hearings included, will be recorded by One News and televised within Honiara and other urban centres with television coverage each evening after a particular hearing.  SIBC will also broadcast all our hearings live for those in the provinces listening in.  We will now proceed with the hearing. 
I believe my Secretariat has already briefed Premiers and the Lord Mayor on the format for this hearing.  For the information of the public I would like to advise that in today’s hearing, the Committee will hear from witnesses at a time.  Each premier will be given an opportunity to make a statement for no longer than 15 minutes. After all three witnesses have presented, I will open the floor for Committee members to ask questions of all three witnesses for up to one hour.  The general questions I believe were provide to all witnesses yesterday afternoon, although Committee members may ask follow-up questions during the question periods.  After the first group of three has completed their session, the Committee will call on the next three and the same process I have just described will continue until we have heard from and question all premiers and the Lord Mayor. Of course while the Committee will hear from all three witnesses at anyone time, whether your turn has yet to come or whether you have already testified, you are almost welcome to listen throughout the whole hearing. 
That said, may I welcome our first two witnesses as I indicated earlier the third witness the honourable Premier for Malaita Province was unable to make it today, as such we will only hear only from the Premier for Guadalcanal Province and the Premier for Western Province.  When the questioning period for this group is set out in this schedule for this hearing ends, whenever that may be, we will take a break and ready for lunch, which is still fixed for me to commence mid day right. 
Could the first two witnesses please state your name and position for the record?

Mr. Panga:  Thank you honourable Chairman and honourable Members of the Foreign Relations Committee, officials from the National Parliament, Colleague Premiers, Lord Mayor, Provincial Secretary and media officials.  I would like to start by thanking the Foreign Relations Committee for giving me and my fellow provincial leaders a chance to be part of this process. My provincial government sees this involvement as a crucial step in the way forward for our province.
The Guadalcanal Province has been greatly supported by the work of RAMSI.  Firstly by coming here in 2003 and restoring law and order in our province, and then by continuing to help build our province back to what it once was.  We see that our provincial government needs to have closer relationship with the RAMSI operation, not only in keeping law and order, but also in the capacity development of our Guadalcanal Police, and in the Reconciliation Process. 
We feel that RAMSI have built a sound relationship with our Police Force, however this needs to be strengthened.  We see that more capacity development needs to be done to increase the skills of our Guadalcanal Police and we need more resources available to our police force, to be able to work on a regular basis in all communities. 
The RAMSI posts around Guadalcanal are working well, and their presence is appreciated, although we do not need to boost the presence of RAMSI we do need to boost the presence of RAMSI and Police across all communities.  Therefore we need more RAMSI/Police posts across province.  Many of our communities are in remote areas and this creates problems of logistic.  We believe that all communities should have access to police to ensure that all our people feel the presence and have the peace of mind that any Police Force should bring. 
            RAMSI has been working closely with our communities and are building up a good relationship with the majority of our people.  We see this relationship as vital in maintaining law and order and also in the reconciliation process. RAMSI must continue to build on this good relationship and to further build the trust require for good community relationship. To help build this trust RAMSI needs to further understand the customs and ways of our people of Guadalcanal.  By working closer with the provincial government, I am sure that the understanding and knowledge required will be forthcoming. 
RAMSI has been building up a good relationship with the Guadalcanal Provincial Government and we would like to see that relationship deepen.  My Provincial Government would like to have monthly meetings with RAMSI and the police on issues concerning our province, and to be consulted on special issues aside from the regular meetings.  We believe that both the Guadalcanal Provincial Government and RAMSI’s underlining intentions for our Province are the same, however, without regular communications and understanding there could be counter-productive actions taken.  This is to especially sensitive around the work of arresting and detaining people, and our reconciliation process. We believe that if we work closer together then we can achieve the best outcomes for all our peoples. 
            My government would also like to have a better understanding of the roles and the responsibilities of the RAMSI in a wider context.  We understand the role they play in Guadalcanal Province; however we would like to have more clarity around all areas that RAMSI are currently working in.  There maybe many areas that RAMSI are currently involved in that could also benefit our provincial government. Having awareness of these activities and resources and being able to access those resources whether it be in technical assistance or other available resources, could be of benefit both to our provincial government and in the work of RAMSI.
My government believes that RAMSI or a presence of an intervening force, police/army force is still required in the Guadalcanal Province.  We would like to see our Province standing on it’s own - in time, however at this point we still require their support. We are heading towards a federals state system and one of the first steps in achieving this is to reconcile our province and the country. Until such time that this has been completed and a federal government system is running efficiently, we see that support will still be required. 
            I once again would like to thank the Foreign Relations Committee for inviting me here today and hope this will be the first of my consultations with the Guadalcanal Provincial Government. We encourage the Foreign Relations Committee to arrange more consultations not only with the Provincial Governments but leaders and communities, such as Church leaders, youth and women’s group leaders. 
Our doors remain open to RAMSI, and we invite them in to work with us so we can build stronger partnership and ensure that we have ongoing peace and stability in our Province which will help ensure the future growth of our province and the wellbeing of our people. 
Thank you, Chairman, honourable colleague members for your attention.

Mr Chairman:  Thank you very much Premier for Guadalcanal.  The next witness would you be able to state your name and position for the record as well as make your statement if you have one. 

Mr. Alex Lokopio (Premier Western Province): Mr Chairman, members of the Foreign Relations Committee, Premiers, Ladies and Gentlemen.       Your invitation to me to respond to questions about the presence and roles of RAMSI in Solomon Islands reached me only yesterday.  If I had been given several days to prepare the answers, they would probably be a lot better than what I am relating to you now.  Nevertheless it gives me great pleasure to participate in the review process of the International Facilitation Assistance Act which is the peace of legislation that has enable RAMSI to assist Solomon Islands. 
            We are all aware that the legislation might be flawed because some people say it has two many loopholes that allow foreign influence to undermine our sovereignty.  Others say it grants too much privilege to RAMSI.  Even to the extent of allowing the Mission to override certain provisions of our Constitution.  Five years down the road and now in times of peace the roles and functions of RAMSI as provided for under the Act, might indeed be outdated and questionable.  However, there is no doubt in my mind that the Facilitation Act has enabled RAMSI to rescue Solomon Islands from collapsing into the black hole.  RAMSI has made a huge difference in the rebuilding of this nation and it is timely and proper that we as one people take stock of what it has done and what else it should do to ensure this nation has durable peace and security and sustainable law on the region, increasing prosperity effective leadership at all levels of society and the competent work force. 
We in the West have suffered much from the devastating event that we had no hand in fomenting.  The consequences of the Bougainville Crisis spillover effect and the unnecessary Solomon Island’s ethnic tension have almost consigned this nation into oblivion.  A large number of my people are still reeling from the psychological, social and economic damages inflicted by these traumatic events. 
To us, the presence of RAMSI and what it has been able to do to bring back normalcy, predictability and integrity to national governance has been much appreciated.  My people have a great admiration for our leaders who had the vision and resolve to invite RAMSI to come and clean up the mess we created for ourselves. And since RAMSI has been here there has been little we could fault it for.  However, since we are here to talk about various aspects of RAMSI work, let me be candid in what I see is happening in the day-to-day activities of RAMSI. 

Mandate, Functions and Roles Of RAMI

I understand RAMSI has intervened in our crisis with the mandate to carry out four main tasks:
  -         The re-establishment of national security and law,
-           The re-strengthening of the justice system,
-           The stabilization of the economy with prudent management of public finance and the
-           Improvement of the machinery of the government. 

All of these tasks have a built-in time element in them.  All of them would require long, (5 to 10 years) timeframes to reach sustainable levels.  It is here, I think, that a clear strategic plan for achieving that sustainable level needs to be produced by Government and RAMSI.  If there were to be an exit strategy for RAMSI, then it ought to spell out how those four tasks would be satisfactorily completed in a given time frame. 
In the area of security, law and order, we in the West have always favoured a dispersed and decentralized policing regime. In public finance, a locally managed finance system would be preferred; some parts of justice system would need to be decentralized and Provinces should have their own pool of human resources to build good governance with. In other words, Government and RAMSI should help devise a plan whereby a programme relating to the ongoing implementation of the four main tasks could function under the proposed federal system of government. 
We must to learns lessons from the fact that it was over centralization in everything governance that had resulted in the speedy demise of the country’s security system, the rule of law and economic wellbeing of the entire nation.  There had been no other parts of the country that were strongly enough to provide an alternative base for good governance during those dark days. 
So RAMSI should stay within the parameters of the four tasks until it has been able to properly address them under different conditions and context.

Operations of RAMSI

There has not been a significant presence of RAMSI in my Province since about 2005.  RAMSI has bases in Gizo, Noro, Munda and Shortlands and only intermittent presence in other parts of the Province, and only as and when required.
 Unlike in other Provinces, RAMSI has not built any significant infrastructures in the West, and its activities there hardly make any headlines.  Perhaps if its gun- carrying officers shoot some of the dangerous crocodiles in a nearby mangrove patches, they might get a mention in the newspaper. 
But RAMSI continues to be very successful in monitoring illicit trades being carried out in villages by foreign traders who deal in prohibited products. With its reptiles and birds and things like that. 
With its rapid response capability on the sea and land, RAMSI has been, many a time, able to get to trouble spots quickly to quell potential conflicts between antagonists.  This has happened on several occasions involving logging operations where our opposing parties have confronted each other. 
Apart from the fact that the presence of RAMSI in the West is comforting to the populace and relationship between them have and continue to be good, RAMSI needs to carry out more awareness program about its roles as the community level, especially in relation to community policing.

Expectations of RAMSI

RAMSI in the West, in my view, should focus more on the boarder between Bougainville and Solomon Islands, on illegal activities of loggers, on community policing and on other programs that would strengthen security at the village level. 
However, RAMSI should not interfere with traditional leadership and should stay out of politics, especially in regard to western peoples’ aspiration for state government.   RAMSI should also formulate an exit strategy, trying it to the main tasks it has been mandated to do.  They must not stay here for ever.  They must come and carry out the work they have been mandated to do and they must see that if they are satisfied and government satisfies then they can leave the country. 

Duration of RAMSI’s Stay

In regards to RAMSI’s stay in the Solomon Islands, might be 5 to 10 years more should be sufficient depending on the contents of each exist strategy. 

Relationship between RAMSI and the RSIP

The rebuilding of the police force continues to be one of the core responsibilities of RAMSI.  If policing is to maintain a highly centralized function, which we in the West believe should not be, then, the relationship between RSIP and RAMSI should continue to focus strongly on professionalizing the other RSIP.  It’s not a big work for RAMSI to really maintain law and order, the police must be good,

their houses, offices, their work place, all must be improved so that this national police can be able to carry out the work. 
            The creation of highly competent, professional and trustworthy police force is essential if the Force is to regain its credibility and a community support. But this is one institution that will require a much longer time frame to attain a satisfactory level of maturity and experience.  (say another 8 years).

Fire Arms

In regard to RAMSI personnel carrying firearms in public, there should be a scaling down on it. Guns should be kept nearby in patrol vehicles or canoes as circumstances dictate but they should not be carried openly.  I still think, though, that those guns should be used to shoot crocodiles only.  These predators are becoming a menace to humans since most licensed guns have been taken away from their owners.  Many people have died as food for crocodiles.

Immunities and Privileges of RAMSI

The immunity and privileges accorded to RAMSI personnel as stipulated in the Facilitation of International Assistance Act should be reviewed.  The Act must be revised so that the national laws and or the Constitution should be taken precedence. 

New Partnership Framework

Coming to the topic of a new partnership framework, I am aware that one country, Japan, has expressed interest in joining the RAMSI arrangement.
If and when the Facilitation Act is amended or a new partnership framework is formulated, other countries with which Solomon Islands has diplomatic relations should be involved.  They have and continue to be as much a part of the Solomon experience as RAMSI member states are.  All our development partners should also ‘own’ the rebuilding of Solomon Islands because one major thing in Solomon Islands today is the infrastructure.  If we allow other countries to be part of this RAMSI, our infrastructure development will improve and that is how the economy will come. 
            My Province is prepared to receive any briefings on the idea of a new partnership framework.

RAMSI as an Alternative or Parallel Government

Finally, ladies and gentlemen, RAMSI should cease to perform certain functions that come under the purview of Solomon Islands’ sovereign functions.

Thank you very much for listening to my presentation.

Mr Chairman:  Thank you very much Premier, Western Province.  There are some questions the Committee would like to ask both Premiers.  I will start off and the Committee would join in later on but I’ll start of with the honorable Premier of Guadalcanal.  The first question is, what do you as a Provincial Leader understand to be the roles and functions of RAMSI?

Mr. Panga:  Mr Chairman, on the roles and functions of RAMSI, as I said in my presentation I am glad to know that this is the first time in history that Premiers are invited to attend consultation and review of this Facilitation Act therefore we do not really know previously the roles and responsibilities of RAMSI. This is because we were not consulted in the past when the first Act was put in place.  Now we are giving our opinion through this consultation and that is the best reason why I said it is to know better the roles and responsibilities of RAMSI.  Thank you.

Mr Chairman:  The Premier of Western Province, what do you understand to be the roles and functions of RAMSI?

Mr. Lokopio:  Mr Chairman, I think it is more or less the same as the idea raised by the Premier of Guadalcanal.  I think there have been requests made from time to time that they are going to come down to the West and to go around visiting the people.  That is not yet done. 
Sir, people in the rural areas especially, the Western Province are listening out and only rely on the news.  I think they understand but very little has been circulated to us but we in the government catch up on some of the papers that have been written and we read them, and so I think we are also waiting for them to come to us to look at what they are doing at the moment.  Thank you.

Mr Chairman:  Thank you Premier.  Basically what you are saying is that there seems to be some sort of may be misunderstanding or confusion in the Provinces about RAMSI’s mandate and work.  Is that what you are suggesting to us? 

Mr. Lokopio:  Yes, I can go further on that one. You know, the people’s idea now is to change the legislation because it is Parliament that called RAMSI to come into the country.  Therefore, we think it’s between the Parliament and the Mission and the Provinces just have to wait because whatever the government and RAMSI says, it is okay, let it go ahead and we stay as we are.  We are happy that guns have been taken away.  I think that is what people want about RAMSI.

Mr Chairman:  Do you have any comment on that Premier for Guadalcanal?

Mr. Panga:  Yes, Mr Chairman, like my colleague Premier for Western Province has mentioned, and as I said when the Facilitation Act was tabled in Parliament, the Provinces were not consulted from day one not.  Hence, we know very little what RAMSI’s role is in this country.  But of course, we had little knowledge of RAMSI’s roles by reading papers.  But wider consultations with people in the rural areas, especially Guadalcanal is none, and that is why I said earlier on today that I am very happy with the CNURA Government as this is the first government that is taking this step forward in consulting all Premiers, in particular I as the Premier of Guadalcanal Province. Thank you.

Mr Chairman:  My next question and I will start with you again honourable Panga, do you think the roles of RAMSI perhaps should change over time?  
What I am trying to say is that there is a certain mandate why RAMSI came in at the beginning, and that was the rule of law, taking the guns away, balancing the budget, improving revenues and so on.  Has that changed?  Do you think that has changed?  Does the role of RAMSI change or should change or should stay?  Do you understand what I am asking?

Mr. Panga:  Come again, Mr Chairman.

Mr Chairman:  Basically, the roles of RAMSI, the purposes of RAMSI coming in at the beginning, and this is no denying is that it came in basically to bring back the rule of law.  What I’m asking is, is there are a second phase to RAMSI?  What is the new priority now for your Province for RAMSI?

Mr. Panga:  Thank you, Mr Chairman. I do not really pick up the question but I just want to raise say that in regards to the second phase of RAMSI, the Guadalcanal Province and my people of Guadalcanal, as I mentioned in my presentation, first we want police stations around Guadalcanal because a lot of criminal activities are being committed around Guadalcanal.  But in order for the Police to carry out its work effectively, it is finding it quite difficult, especially on logistic support. 
Currently, RAMSI officers are posted at police posts and they provide a bit of logistics but to effectively help the local police to carry out their work is none.  Also in my presentation, maybe at the provincial government level there is also need strengthen the relationship capacity of RAMSI with Provincial Governments. 

Mr Chairman:  Premier for West, I think I might rephrase the question.  Basically do you perceive the role of RAMSI has change since its inception five years ago?

Mr. Lokopio:  I really want to say here that I think time is now right for us to review RAMSI and change to take its place.  I think when we mandate a certain task to any group it is customary that we have to set its framework so that the group that is tasked to do the work does it according to the framework.  What happens to RAMSI is that it’s really open.  It can go ahead to work until the work is done.  Now that is open, and that is why time is now up that we have to head towards changing this.  That is why I’m very happy to be here without hiding that I think time is up, it is too long.  RAMSI should report to the nation every year on what it is doing for the last six months or one year so that the nation knows that what it has done so far and these are the things remain to be done.  That is how we can measure the time RAMSI should be here.  Now it is very difficult to do that because we don’t set the time frame and so these people cannot work hard or they may work hard but not according to the time line that we set.  And so it is time to change.  This is my only comment on this.  I see RAMSI doing a good work but it cannot just go on remaining like this. We have to review and change.  Thank you.

Mr Chairman:  Thank you Premier for Western Province.

Hon. Kengava:  Would you like to see maybe a new partnership agreement spelling out clearly the time frame? 

Mr. Panga:  Yes, I think that is what my province of Guadalcanal wants to see.  Thank you.

Mr. Lokopio:  I think that is the same with us.  I think we have to set a time frame. 

Hon. Boyers:  Premiers, thank you for your well presented presentations. I know that you’ve spoken fairly broadly on a lot of your concerns.  
In your Provinces’ point of view, do you think the focus of RAMSI’s work in Solomon Islands should be broadened and maintained in years to come or do you think RAMSI should be more focused on an exit strategy?  In other words do you think that RAMSI should be expanding on its assistance package and programs for Solomon Islands and provinces or should it be more focused on an exit strategy process? 

Mr. Panga:  On the Guadalcanal Provincial point of view we want to see the work of RAMSI strengthened and that it remains in the country for some more time.  For example, right now it is still not yet timely for RAMSI to leave the country. 
The situation as it is today still does not allow RAMSI to leave.  In my presentation today I mentioned that our custom in Solomon Islands especially, for us in Guadalcanal is that we believe in reconciliation.  Every reconciliation process in Guadalcanal is not yet done. When law and order is there we perform reconciliation process and if all the reconciliations are done, it has to be done in other provinces as well and then we can weigh how long RAMSI should remain in the country.  If there is still a need for RAMSI to remain then maybe it needs to remain until the Federal System Government takes place, if not then we exit them from this country. 

Mr. Lokopio:  On that question, I have already touched in my speech that the Western Province favours an exit strategy for RAMSI.  RAMSI must not think that it will stay here for ever and ever.  It must be given a time to work hard so as to finish its work.  If RAMSI’s roles are broadened then I submit if the government of this country agrees to broaden or widen it then we have to include some of the donor partners. 
My concern is on infrastructure because the government of the day cannot afford to build infrastructures for all provinces throughout this country and that is why leave some of the work we have given to RAMSI now.  But if we want to broaden its roles and functions then include other people who can come in and give us money for infrastructures.  I would only agree with that – infrastructure is otherwise I stand by what I said in my speech that an exit strategy is very important.  Thank you.

Hon. Wale:  Earlier on today the honorable Premier of the Western Province touched on very clearly the original mandate and purpose as specified in the Act, which he mentioned law and order, national security, stabilizing government finances and economy, strengthening the machinery of government and so forth which are its original functions whereby in 2003 our government invited RAMSI, that is its focus to get it up and running.  I suppose the core of the question is asking both of your opinions and the provinces’ whether those things are still the same or they have changed now and therefore RAMSI should move on or it is yet to achieve those and is still going ahead to work on these basic purposes or functions that it came in to do.  That is my first question I would like to ask both of you to clarify on the original purposes of RAMSI.  Do you two think it should change and move from now or it needs to spend more time to focus on those? 
My second question is more specifically to you honorable Lokopio, Premier of Western Province in regards to the new partnership arrangement the government is going ahead to inform RAMSI about this time and your thinking, for example, you mention Japan but other countries that we have diplomatic relations with should come in. 
The other side of this thinking is that we have bilateral relations with other countries and that does not stop us from talking with them to build infrastructures for us or other things that we might want, apart from our development aspirations as a country.  It does not mean only if they go to RAMSI that can be.  That can be done without going to RAMSI. 
Having said that, I come back to you again do you think it is very important if this mandate is broadened and assisting countries or countries that are part of RAMSI’s efforts are broadened, do you think it is necessary that it includes others that are not inside RAMSI and specifically those not inside the South Pacific region? 

Mr. Lokopio:  Thank you for that question.  Yes, I see broadening as, because the normal practice these days is that whenever we projectized all projects and are put through Parliament, according to my study last time, of all the development projects we have in this country, only 30% are implemented and 70% not implemented.  The answer is because there is no concentration.  There are no development partners, and I don’t why.  May be one way is to include one or two other countries.  We should include inside RAMSI’s program and whenever any one is to come in as part of RAMSI it has to be involved in road building or whatever it is.  They should be given specific tasks to do.  They should be given the specific mandate to do it, looking back at budgets of their own country.  They must know that because they are part of RAMSI in Solomon Islands they have a special task given to them, and so they will push forward to achieving the task.  That is what I mean but if we say we just continue as usual, we request as we did and there is no need for any other partners to come in, then we can continue that way.  Take for example, there are some army personnel here as part of RAMSI and we have many reefs in the West and so I asked them to come and bomb the reefs to enable canoes to go through, but there was no response from them.  That is what I mean.  May be it is not in their programs and so they did not respond.  Instead of having the armies just living in Honiara they should come down to provinces and bomb the reefs so that canoes and ships can go through to fast track the transport of copra and cocoa, and you name them.  That’s what I mean.  I think that is my answer, and thank you very much.

Mr Panga:  The thinking of Guadalcanal Province is that before the peace process we signed the Townsville Peace Agreement, and in the Townsville Peace Agreement there are certain projects that were identified for funding.  However, those projects were never funded until today although they are part of the peace process which our people are still waiting for.  For those of us in Guadalcanal, two or three projects like the trans-insular roads are yet to happen.  If RAMSI’s roles could be broadened to target specific projects such as what the Premier of Western Province has said.  The trans-insular road across the island of Guadalcanal should be constructed to open up development so that people in the Weather Coast can also participate in economic development.  The Marau wharf, and so on.  Projects in the Townsville Peace Agreement must be implemented and taken on board by RAMSI in its programs in the country.  
I agree with what the Premier of Western Province has said.  For instance, even the feeder roads here on Guadalcanal which is just here must be rehabilitated.  I know that after a tension or war in other countries rehabilitation goes ahead but that is not the situation here in Solomon Islands.  There is no rehabilitation taking place on roads outside Honiara.  These people should also be part and partial of rehabilitation programs of the country.  Projects that are earmarked for provinces must be looked into with the view of implementing them.  In that way we will see law and order coming up, people will be happy with infrastructures put in place and our people will be fully committed on development and there will be less problems because people will busy themselves doing their own work in the rural areas.  Thank you.

Hon Soalaoi:  I am just coming back to the issue of the exit strategy.  When our people heard this many of them do not want to hear it.  For us, and both of you have mentioned the importance of having a timeframe. 
My question is, what are the likely implications of not having a timeframe on an exit strategy, especially on governance on the part of provincial premiers and even the national government.  Thank you Chairman. 
I do not know whether you two get my question, but what I mean is what is going to happen if there is no exit strategy and RAMSI stays on forever?  How is it going to affect us?  Do you think that after a long time and they leave live and we are not capable of leading ourselves?  What are your feelings as Premiers?  What do you think would happen?  Is it going to affect leadership, especially in the provinces if RAMSI stays on without letting us know when it is going to leave?

Mr Panga:  The position and thinking of those of us from Guadalcanal is that RAMSI has to leave one day in future.  But what we want to see is the full restoration of law and order, peace and normalcy restored in the country before they leave.  And as I have said many times the reconciliation process is important. 
The custom of this country is to sort out its problems through reconciliation in the communities and amongst our people.  But this can be done only when there is restoration of law and order so that the reconciliation process is not disturbed.  In my thinking on behalf of my people of Guadalcanal is that there must come a time when RAMSI must leave.  
I also think that at the moment RAMSI must work closely with local police officers in the country to enable them take on their responsibilities much better.  Sometimes our local police officers do not understand their work and so there should be the chance of working together with RAMSI to better know their roles as police.  Many of the Police Officers do not know their work, especially our local police officers.  And so it would be good if they work together with RAMSI so that they better understand their responsibilities and to further strengthen their work in terms of their day to day responsibility in police duty.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Lokopio:  I am with the Premier of Guadalcanal on this point.  I think if RAMSI remains in here for a long time then there is no need of having a nation and there will be no sovereignty.  I think whilst they are here we have to identify what they still have to do, what they still have to fulfill so that they do those areas that need to be improved or needs to be done in the next four to five years.  This must be properly stated.  
I am very concerned with the Police Force because these are the people who will control law and order of this nation.  They have to be given special training and accommodation.  They have to feel confident that they can manage the nation.  That is what I am looking at.  If RAMSI remains here as long as it wants then dependence will come in.  The feeling will be that because RAMSI is here let them do the work.  The local police are going to have that attitude.  That’s why I think right now whilst we appreciate the work of RAMSI let them finish the work they are yet to do, which they did not tell us about.  They have to come up with their own report too telling us that since they arrived this is the work they have done and this is what they are still to complete, and so the government should give them another four or five years.  RAMSI too must give us its estimated time to complete its work.  That’s how we can work.  But the way we are going this time without anything, RAMSI will still go ahead, we are still under them in some way, then I think it should speed up some of its work for the remaining time, may be two years is very short so may be 5 to 8 years time, is my suggestion, is fair enough.  Thank you.

Hon Tosika:  In regards to the questions and comments you are making, in respect to the comment made by the Premier of Guadalcanal Province in terms of arresting and detaining the general purpose for which we are here to review under the Facilitation definition, this foreign Police is here to assist the Solomon Islands Police.
In the thinking of your Provinces, is this general purpose of assisting the Solomon Islands Police fulfilled or not yet.  Whether or not the foreign troops have taken the leading roles or the Solomon Islands Police should take the leading role?  In this case the definition spells out very clearly that the foreign troops are here only to provide assistance and not to take the leading role in executing Police duties.  What is happening in your Provinces according to your observations and thinking?

Mr Lokopio:  I think RAMSI was invited to come into the country and they should work under our program.  They should ask the Police what they really need in the country, and they must listen to the Police.  By doing that, they will be able to work together.  But what is happening this time is that RAMSI seems to be coming up with its own programs and it does what its wants.  
Now take for example in Gizo if the RAMSI vehicle breaks down they is nothing they will do but they all just sit down.  If any logging ships go there and get birds, and if there is no logistic support because only RAMSI has it, nothing will be done by our local Police.  We can see here the reliance of the local police on RAMSI.  That is what I mean that if RAMSI takes the leading role all the time then the attitude of our local police will always be like that.  Okay it is alright RAMSI will do it and so let us stay.  You cannot change that attitude if we allow a foreigner to lead you, and I as the owner of that place just sit down and watch.  We have to talk practical here. We have to lead and those that we invited should come and follow us and direct us.  If a road is bad it shows us which way to go.  That is what we need, and not somebody to come and dictate what our Police are doing.  That is my comment on that.  Thank you.

Mr Panga:  We from Guadalcanal are also in line with what the Premier of Western Province has said.  That’s what we are seeing.  My Police Station at Tetere covers a big area, and every month there are 30 cases that need dealing with, and so one year it is 300 cases.  It is the local Police that should know how to deal with the cases, but they need logistic support.  Now when they do not

have backup from RAMSI they just do nothing in the Stations, and therefore some of these cases were never attended to. 
I think our Police Officers need to be equipped, and RAMSI should help the Police in other areas.  Our Police Officers must be in the forefront in addressing law and order because when the time comes for RAMSI to leave our country our local police officers would take over the responsibility.  Because that’s the sovereignty we have.  We respect RAMSI’s presence but as time goes along they must exit one day and by that time our own police belong will take over the whole responsibility of what RAMSI has put in here.  But we in Guadalcanal really appreciate RAMSI’s work but we want our local police to go forward, they must take the lead first in any issues regarding law and order in our provinces.  Our local Police Officers too should be able to inform us whether an area is ready for people to come together to be reconciled.  If there is need for court case then let it be.  That is what I can see in regards to policing on the presence of RAMSI in this country.  Thank you.

Mr Wale:  Honorable Alex Lokopio, in your opening statement earlier on today, you said that some sections of the Constitution were overridden by RAMSI.  I did not really get the quotation but it is something to that effect either by RAMSI or by this Act. 
Can you clarify what sections or provisions of the Constitution do you feel were overridden by RAMSI?  You also said that RAMSI needs to focus on the border, focus on logging, it must stay out of politics and not interfere with Western Province’s aspirations for state government.  In relation to those aspects in your statement do you feel that RAMSI is involved in politics, and that they interfere with the aspirations of the Western Province for State Government or any other Province for that matter? 
Lastly, you also said in your statement that some of the functions should not be performed by RAMSI.  I think this is in response to this thinking that RAMSI is running a parallel government, and so you said that RAMSI should not perform some of the functions.  What sort of functions are these that you made in your statement.  Those are my questions.  I would like you to just clarify a bit more what you said earlier on.  

Mr Lokopio:  On the functions of RAMSI, we are seeing very little on this.  What is happening in the Western Province this time, Police, for example, remains at the base and RAMSI is doing all the work.  RAMSI went around the villages arresting people who argue over logging and so on.  This is why I said the functions of the local Police are not clearly seen here, and so RAMSI seems to be dominating everything.  That is why I stated earlier on that relying on other people to do work will encourage the thinking of our local police officers to remain as they are.  That is on that area.  I think the function to be carried out by our local police is not clear to us. 
Or may be there is a sick person in Vella La Vella and so the PPC should ask RAMSI to go and bring the sick patient over to Gizo because they have the boats.  The PPC says no.  So you see.  There is no other way we can really move things because they are there holding on tight.  That is why I said that some of the functions that should rightly belong to the Police or other authorities were overridden by RAMSI.  They are people who have their own power, money and everything, and that is why I said that.
Now the other area I forgot which you raised is that I think there are lots of work they are doing.  That is what I see.  Western Province is province with many islands surrounded by the border, and that is why I told RAMSI that one of its roles should be to carry out surveillance work of the vast sea areas of this country.  Their boat should be used for surveillance work and not just anchor off at Gizo.  I once summoned them to come to me so that we could talk but because they have their own programs they did not come.  Therefore, it is very difficult to tell them something and they will respond accordingly.  I only use our local police officers.  That is what I see, and so if they are to remain here in the next five to eight years, I really want to go out from Honiara and go down to the provinces and deal with the people.  Take for example, the drugs in most of the rural villages.  RAMSI cannot go to 700 villages in the Western Province.  It is difficult, and that is why I said we should formulate village policing, which died a long time ago and nothing was done about it.  That is why I am weak there but anyway I think let us give them some more time but the time left is time for hard work.  We set the plan for them and not them setting the plan for us.  That is what I can say.  
            Another question is about interfering on traditional leadership and politics.  I think it is very important that I do not want different people coming in and interfere with politics.  They must follow what we set.  That is why I think we must also take a good look at this immunity law. 
What I am saying is that it is very open.  Let us look at the vision, follow our vision, set our vision and set things for this nation.  Outside people must not come and interfere with us whether we are right or wrong, allow us because we are living in a sovereign nation.  That is my view on that.

Hon Wale:  I would like to ask a question on the Premier of Guadalcanal Province.  In your statement you said that a little bit more focus should be given to building the capacity of the Guadalcanal Police.  I am not really clear when you made that statement whether you also include the Guadalcanal Provincial Government but certainly the Guadalcanal Police.  What aspects of the Police do you think RAMSI needs to focus on in its capacity building? 

Hon Panga:  It is both in relation to the provincial government.  Within the provincial government there is inadequate manpower, which the central government is also unable to provide us with.  For example, some of the posts within the provincial government need to be filled, and this is where I think RAMSI should also assist to help strengthen provincial governments on some of our manpower capability that we did not have.  And here I am talking about posts like legal advisers and so on.  Some provinces including Guadalcanal Province do not have legal advisers for a good number of years now.  We want to enact ordinances for resources on Guadalcanal but that is not possible because of the absence of a legal advisor.  That is an area that I want RAMSI to assist in, and that is to strengthen the manpower capacity of the Province.
            In regards to Police, I mentioned in my presentation that there should be an increase in the number of Police Stations around the Province.  For example, from Tetere where there is the Police Station to Marau, is a big area, and if somebody kills a man in between that area, nobody would know, and this has happened already.  There was an incident that happened in Ruavatu where someone killed another man.  There is a big gap from Tetere to Marau.  What the Provincial Government want is to establish another police station may be in Aola.  But that cannot be done because of financial constraints.  Therefore, that is where I believe RAMSI should assist if requested to establish police posts identified by the provincial government and also to increase the manpower in those police posts.   

Mr. Panga:  The manpower inside the Police Post.  Thank you.

Mr Chairman:  Any last question from the Committee?

Hon. Tosika:  Premier Lokopio from the Western Province, earlier on today you mentioned firearms that the military and personnel carry publicly, and this is governed by the Notice that we are now trying to review that in certain areas personnel are not allowed to carry firearms because of the Facilitation Act and the Notice is very specific that they have authority to carry firearms around in public places. 
Now that we are reviewing the Notice and the Act, do you think carrying of firearms in public should stop?  Or in your position as Premier because arms are carried to protect communities and people, what kind of places do you think those firearms should be carried?  This is with the understanding that in the past firearms were not allowed to be carried in public in Solomon Islands but were securely stored away in the armory.  Arms were only carried in public only on exceptional cases when certain activities happen but not allowed publicly.  Today, after five years RAMSI personnel still carry firearms in the public.  In your opinion, do you think it is necessary that they still carry firearms in public or not?  Thank you.

Mr. Lokopio:  Mr Chairman, during the colonial days before RAMSI came into this country and even during the ethnic tension days, people own guns but they did not carry the guns around in public.  Only when they go hunting and shooting of crocodiles that guns were carried, but hidden from the eyes of the people.  This is because some of the old people are still alive today and who have seen or witnessed what happened during the Second World War that carrying gun in public is threatening, and so they don’t like it.  That is why I said, for example, the Western Province is one of the provinces that has peace loving people and they don’t want to see guns.  That is why when my people see RAMSI personnel carrying guns in public they said, “Goodness me, guns were banned but they are still carrying them in public”.  But we told them that the law allows RAMSI personnel to carry guns in public.  Who are they and who are us?  I think we are just people in one nation.  I think it is better for them not to carry around guns in public because it frightens people.  Only when there is an increase in the number of crocodile that certain groups invited RAMSI to go and shoot the crocodiles, and this is at night so a lot of people did not see it.  But in some places people want crocodile to be killed because it is also their food.  That is why it is good to own a gun but not publicly carrying it around.  But we respect the law you have passed in here that those people can carry guns and so let it be but I would like to see this law changed.  That is what I can say about that.  Thank you.

Mr. Panga:  In my presentation today, I mentioned that we also want to see a scale down in the carrying of arms around in public by RAMSI.  Seeing them carrying guns around in public is causing fear in the communities.  It is best if they put their guns in their bases.  In their routine patrols they should go on patrol without guns, only where there is need for it that guns can be carried with them.  They have not done anything to the people with the guns, but the fear that is within the people when seeing the guns that is affecting them.  Now that we see improvement in law and order coming up this time, we want to see a reduction in the carrying of firearms in public.  The guns should be placed in their bases.  Maybe only on certain times allowed by the law when the need arises that they can carry the guns.  Thank you.

Mr Chairman:  One last question Premiers.

Hon. Ghiro:  Thank you very much for your presentations, you two Premiers.  We all know that RAMSI is here for five years.  I would like your views on the success and shortfalls of RAMSI in its work in your provinces?

Mr. Lokopio:  Thank you for that question.  The Premier from Guadalcanal will also give his reply on this question. 
In the Western Province one area that I am very pleased about and would especially like to thank RAMSI on is auditing of public finances because for a good number of years in the past our financial accounts were not audited.  And when RAMSI came in I really thank them.  That is the kind of work I want them to do.  They did something for the Province and handed it to me as Premier and they promised to do more things.  Provincial accounts of some 16 years ago were audited and updated showing some millions of dollar unaccounted for, and so we know that some people involved were already dead.  But that is the kind of thing I want.  RAMSI is top in that area.  That is the kind of thing I want. 
On other RAMSI programs, for instance on policing they should also inform us what they have done and what they are still doing and will be still doing.  For instance, they should give a report to show us that work is done in villages like this or they have set up things in villages, or they continue training our police officers and things like that.  That is the kind of report RAMSI should be giving us if they want to still remain in the country, then I will accept them.  What they have done so far in regards to community policing has failed, and their working together with our local police is very poor, but I think I really praise them on public finance.  Those are my few comments on that question.

Mr. Panga:  In the viewpoint of G. Province, in the previous years RAMSI has been doing a very good work, and that is the restoration of law and order.  But we still need the presence of RAMSI in the country.  May be only in certain areas that sometimes I am not happy with RAMSI but it’s normal.  An example of this, is an incident that happened in Avu, Avu when they arrested the mother and father of a particular person that they wanted.  I am not happy because they did not consult the provincial government.  That is why in my presentation today I said that on such matters there is need for RAMSI to come and consult with the provincial government so that we can together address issues like that.  But the work of RAMSI has been really successful.  We in Guadalcanal are happy to see RAMSI’s presence because if anything happens they always attended to it.  We really appreciate their work, but it is only on certain areas, which I have mentioned that they need to may be adjust their approaches and thinking.       When they come to such a situation like that they have to consult the Provincial Governments.  They have to consult the rightful authorities of the people so that we can all see how best to deal with a matter so that before any further investigation or arrest is done, it is done on the right people or people who are actually involved.  
I was not quite happy in the past few days over this incident on the way RAMSI approached it.  I know that they too have a problem because one of their officers has been hurt and vice versa.  RAMSI’s work is appreciated but in some areas there needs to be consultations with provincial governments.

Mr Chairman:  One last question.  We are running out of time.

Hon. Kengava:  Thank you, Chairman.  I have a short question for both Premiers.  If we keep the status quo of how RAMSI operates in the country like in the past five years now, what I really want to know is the feeling of the young people in your provinces?  The longer we keep RAMSI will there be resentment or acceptance?  This is very important.

Mr. Lokopio:  My response to that question is that during the early days when RAMSI just came in, I witnessed that no drunkard people ever walk around in Gizo Town and in many other villages because when something happens RAMSI is there on the spot.  Discipline was very good at that time.  But I do not know why they are slack.  They seem to be coming over here in Honiara many times, and that is why there is an increase of drunkenness in Gizo by the youths because nobody can handle them.  That is one thing I notice this time.  
I think the young people should be taught too, may be through village community policing.  Let the young people to be involved in the running of their own affairs in the villages.  I think by doing that there will be a decrease in the drinking problem.  I don’t know why but RAMSI seems not to be very active nowadays in getting to the spot, arrest people, put them in the vehicle and then in custody because that would really teach the drunkards a lesson.  That is why I don’t know what would happen if RAMSI leaves but it would seem to me that RAMSI has already gone out of West because it is no longer doing the kind of work it used to do in the past today.  They have come up here in Honiara, and so I think we have to look for alternatives of helping our young people when RAMSI actually leaves the country. 

Mr. Panga:  In G. Province, what I see is that since the arrival of RAMSI, most people, the committees and even the youths accepted RAMSI to bring back law and order and protect the communities.  May be a few are not happy but that is just on certain issues.  But a majority of young people on Guadalcanal still support RAMSI in its work of getting back law and order. 
I think what is really needed is for RAMSI to make friends with our young people.  They should go down to people in the villages and hold awareness talks in terms of assisting them and counseling them, especially people on Guadalcanal who were affected by the ethnic tension.  This is to build up their trust and confidence.  The Police are doing this role but they need to go down to the rural areas and hold awareness talks regarding the importance of police work and RAMSI informing the youths on where they can be involved in the area of policing. 
I can see some RAMSI personnel going down to the rural areas now providing sport equipments like balls, etc. to the youths, and they also involved themselves with the youths by playing with them.  These are some of the things that should be done so that our youths are seen as part of RAMSI’s programs.  That is why I talked very strongly today that RAMSI should extend its work to foster good relationship with youths, the young people and people in the communities through awareness programs and doing things to involve them.  In that way the youths will better understand the work of RAMSI and they can become good friends.  So that whenever any youth misbehaves like being drunk or doing something nasty, those other youths can assist RAMSI by providing information, which can easily led to the arrest of the drunkard or the one committing crime.   
The observation here is that RAMSI’s work is accepted by all the youths but they need to strengthen that relationship and by doing down to the grassroots and the community level.

Mr Chairman:  Thank you.  I think time is up.  Thank you on behalf of my committee and secretariat.  I thank honourable Steven Panga, Premier of Guadalcanal and the honourable Alex Lokopio, Premier Western Province for participating in this meeting today.  Thank you very much.

Morning session adjourned

Afternoon Session

Mr Chairman:  I hope everybody has a good lunch.  Could you please state your name and positions for the records please?

Hon Lonsdale Manasseh (Premier/Isabel Province):  It is an honor for me to be accorded the privilege to appear before the Foreign Relations Committee to answer and to provide the views of my Province.  Given the understanding that a lot of questions will be covered later on, I will be very brief and short. 
First and foremost the stand of my province and the understanding that we have in terms of the roles and functions of RAMSI in Solomon Islands is that they are in my Province to restore law and order; to strengthen and improve government mechanism and infrastructures to their expectation and to provide security and policing.  And hence my Province was much honored and we welcome since day one that RAMSI should continue to do its good work, especially in Isabel Province. 
The relationship between RAMSI and Isabel Province is just excellent.  We have maintained a very high profile of good working relationship and respect for one another, hence their participation in the Province and nation building to try and put our country into its right perspective and place, for me as Deputy Premier, I think I highly congratulate RAMSI. 
Despite of this, the expectation of my province on RAMSI is that it should play a more active role, especially in policing the communities, working together with the Solomon Islands Police Force.  Given the understanding that RAMSI has more logistic support, it is the desire of my Province to see more participation in terms of logistic support, like what is in their programs, what are the priority needs of my Province, especially to carry out the task of law and order and maintaining policing. 
Isabel Province, as we all know, is the longest island in Solomon Islands with the shortest road.  Hence we really need to RAMSI’s logistical support at this point in time when we need their transport and in times of emergency, like in Isabel Province if it rains plane cannot land.  RAMSI’s participation in the Province has given us more hope because their helicopter or chopper always land there for any medical emergencies that we have.  Hence I would like to say that Isabel Province welcomes RAMSI and RAMSI can stay in Isabel as long as they want and for how long. 
There are other areas that my Province really needs RAMSI to assist in.  The first is that given the understanding that RAMSI is here to strengthen and improve government mechanisms, we also expect RAMSI in its programs and initiative should provide legal advisors because that is a much needed area.  I know that it is not only Isabel Province that has this problem but I think it is in every province – we are all still crying out for legal advisors. 
With all the resources that RAMSI has, I expect more from RAMSI, and that is why during the last five years although we have restored law and order and a lot of improvements have been done in the government sectors and in the provinces, there are still a lot that needs to be done within the province. 
Mr Chairman, the lifespan of RAMSI, as far as my government stands, we don’t have a time frame for RAMSI’s exit.  I think we still need RAMSI although there was not much happening during the ethnic tension in our Province but we see the presence of RMASI as still a desire for the Province.  Hence I would like to be registered here that there should be an increase on the number of RAMSI personnel sent to my Province, and not only three like we are having now with only a very short term of two or three months.  The reason why I decided that they should spend longer time before there is a change is that if they are to have a program in terms of policing and other areas they should be really complete the tasks before they leave the Province. 
As I have mentioned to you, Mr Chairman, I really don’t want to go in detail because a lot of questions will be asked and it would be a repeat of words during the time of deliberations.  Hence on behalf of my government and my people of Isabel Province, I think this is the first dialogue that we have and we are looking forward to more dialogue and consultations where I expect a lot of areas would have to be discussed at the provincial level and the executive.  I believe during our continuous dialogue we would give more inputs to the Foreign Relations Committee as to what we want to see for the future of RAMSI. 
With these few words, Mr Chairman.  Thank you very much.

Mr Chairman:  Thank you very much Deputy Premier of Isabel Province. I do believe that a lot more dialogue is necessary with your Province and all the other provinces as well.  Can I have your presentation please the Premier of Central Islands? 

Mr Vasuni (Premier of Central Islands):  Thank you Honourable Chairman and Honourable Members of the Foreign Relations Committee, colleague Premiers, Parliament officers, media officers Ladies and Gentlemen. 
The Chairman and Members of the Foreign Relations Committee, may I at the outset thank you for inviting me to appear before you in this hearing.  This hearing is an opportunity for my government to present the general views of my government and the 25,000 or so people of the Central Islands Province on the work and effectiveness of RAMSI on specific issues of concern to my Province.

It is common knowledge ladies and gentlemen that RAMSI came into our shores at the request of the National Government made on 4th July 2003 to Assisting Countries such as the Government of Australia, Cook Islands, Fiji, the Federated States of Micronesia, Kiribati, Marshall Islands, Nauru, New Zealand, Niue, Palau, Papua New Guinea, Samoa, Tonga, Tuvalu and Vanuatu to

“HELPEM FREN”.  This request was made at the time when our country was going through the darkest hours in the history of our country.  There was law and order problem and the government machinery was at stand still.  Delivery of services to our people was not functioning.
To facilitate RAMSI entering our shores, the National Government passed “The Facilitation of International Assistance Act 2003”.  After the passage, certain Notices were made by His Excellency, the Governor General, namely, Legal Notice No. 61 – The Facilitation of International Assistance Notice 2003; Legal Notice No. 67 – The Facilitation of International Assistance (Weapons Surrender) Notice 2003; Legal Notice No. 75 – The Facilitation of International Assistance (Weapons Surrender) Notice 2003
Mr Chairman and Honourable Members of the Foreign Relations Committee, according to Section 2 of the Act “the public purposes” for which RAMSI came into our shores should include:-

• Ensuring security and safety of persons and property,
• Maintaining supplies and services essential to the life of the community,
• Preventing and suppressing violence, intimidation and crime,

• Maintaining law and order,

• Supporting administration of justice,

• Supporting and developing Solomon Islands institutions, and

• Responding to natural catastrophic events.

 

Perhaps the main question should be “Has RAMSI done what it is here to do?”  Generally speaking, my government and the people of Central Province wish to take this opportunity to commend the work of RAMSI since it stepped on our shores.  RAMSI has done a great job in restoring law and order, assisted capacity building, set in motion a roadmap to economic recovery, etc.  Solomon Islands and its people should be grateful for what RAMSI has done for us and we should thank the Almighty God for allowing a generous heart to be instilled in the minds of the assisting countries to help us.
For the purpose of this hearing ladies and gentlemen, I will focus only on the followings:-

(1)        RAMSI Support to Solomon Islands Police Force in Central Islands Province, including:

• Capacity building or on the job training for the Solomon Islands Police Force in Central Province.
• Presence of RAMSI in my Province is also to build community confidence.
• They have also supplied logistic support available, for example, fuel touring and communication facilities such as facsimile.  And as my Honourable colleague, the Premier has mentioned we also have support from them in terms of medical problems.  We also have them doing operational planning.  Of course, they assist Police officers in doing patrolling work, and of course they also assist our community to quickly respond to complaints, whenever there is a problem.

However, Mr Chairman and members of the Panel, whilst I commend the good work done by RAMSI in my Province I wish to raise this question why RAMSI has to pull out from Yandina; we do not have any RAMSI officers there.  Ladies and gentlemen you will agree with me that down there we do have law and order problem that is ongoing or currently experiencing at Yandina in the Russells Islands. 
Also Honourable Chairman, it appears that RAMSI assistance has being reduced.  For instance, Central Province at times only has one, compared to other sister provinces that have four, five or perhaps more than that.  They are accommodated in Tulagi, but as I said currently we only have one personnel.  There is need to increase the number of RAMSI personnel in our Province. 
With regards to RAMSI exit, this is a much talked about topic.  The truth is that RAMSI will leave the shores of Solomon Islands only when the Solomon Islands Government decides for RAMSI to leave our shores.  This decision must be made on a reasoned and sound judgment.  There must be proper research into relevant matters and issues. 
A review of the work of RAMSI must be done annually, and this review must take the views of the Provincial Governments and the people at large.  This may also include perhaps a national referendum to hear the views of the people whether RAMSI should leave the country or not.
On weapons surrender and its impact, the Facilitation of International Assistance Weapons Surrender Notice 2003 and Section 21 of the Facilitation of International Assistance Act 2003 had caused 3,000 or so licensed gun holders in the country to surrender their guns.  Licensed gun holders have in the past used their guns to kill pigs, birds and crocodiles.  In Ngella and Russells, the population of crocodiles, as the Premier of Western has alluded to earlier on, have grown and they are now a threat to the people.  More than 10 people have been killed by crocodiles.  In Ngella due to logging, pigs have gone hungry and so are left to eat people’s produce in the gardens.  People do not have guns to kill or threaten the pigs to leave their gardens.  The impact is that our own people will go hungry.
Proper legal construction is necessary on the Facilitation of International Assistance Weapons surrender Notice 2003 – Legal Notice No. 75.  My layman’s reading is that this Notice, especially paragraphs 2 and 3 meant that the following persons are allowed to possess weapons in the weapons surrender area:-

• Members of RAMSI
• Solomon Islands Police authorized by the Commissioner of Police to possess weapons in the course of their duties
• Those with current and valid firearms license issued under Section 6 of the Firearms and Ammunition Act.

 

If the above construction is correct, then it is considered that the surrender of licensed guns maybe wrong and that those who have surrendered their licensed guns need to be compensated.  It is noteworthy that in the recent Parliament Meeting, Parliament had passed the Supplementary Appropriation Bill, which included the budget of SDB$3million to pay compensation to licensed gun holders who have surrendered their guns.
RAMSI, ladies and gentlemen, has done an excellent job in the law and justice sector in Solomon Islands.  Improvements had been seen markedly in Honiara, especially in the High Court and the Magistrate Court.  Court hearings are now happening in the Provinces, especially my province.  However, sad to say, Central Islands Province has no proper court building.  Court circuits are heard in the Provincial Building and the Tulagi Police Hall.  Our humble request is for RAMSI to assist us in building a court house and office at Tulagi and a court house at Yandina and furthermore a residence for a resident magistrate at Tulagi.
The Honourable Chairman and the Honourable Members of the Committee, in concluding I wish to make the following recommendations.

• Maintain the 2003 Notice as it is and RAMSI needs to be reviewed annually.  The review may include a “National Referendum” to hear the views of the people as to whether RAMSI should or should not stay.
• Administration of justice support must reach out to provinces, especially on infrastructures like court houses and residential houses.
• Need to control the population of crocodiles with the use of guns to minimize threat of our people in Central Province.

 

With this brief submission I thank the Foreign Relations Committee for listening.  Thank you very much.

Mr Chairman:  Thank you very much Premier of Central Islands Province.  Can I have presentation from the Premier of Makira/Ulawa please?

Hon Weape (Premier/Makira Province):  Thank you Honourable Chairman, and Members of the Foreign Relations Committee, Honourable Premiers, the media and officers who are here this afternoon.  First of all, I would like to thank you for this opportunity I have on behalf of my Province to make a general comment on the work of RAMSI in Solomon Islands.  It would have been better if my executive had put together its observations and views for the Committee’s consideration.  However, due to situations we are facing, I thank you that I can only give general opinions and certainly I will be working and discussing further issues in relation to RAMSI’s responsibilities and roles with my provincial executive, which we are going to give to the committee later on.  
A few comments I would like to make here is that I think in order to make a very good review of RAMSI, it would have been better if the initial roles, objectives, goals and responsibilities of RAMSI are communicated down to people in the villages and the provinces who would be in a better position to provide good information to you because they would have basis upon which their assessments are to be made on the roles and functions of RAMSI.  However, even if that is not the case since we have difficulties and so it is accepted.  Therefore, any statements I am going to make, as I have stated will be just general comments.  To tell the truth, the work of RAMSI and what RAMSI is supposed to be doing in the Province is not well known to my people.  My people do not have fair of idea what RAMSI is suppose to be doing.  I think may be because of the fact that our Makira Province is quite small and so one or two officers sometimes posted to our Province, and therefore we do not quite feel an impact of their performance in the Province and the communities.  Apart from that, one other factor is reporting.  I think if some kind of reports on the work that RAMSI is doing is produced, it would give us a good picture of the work RAMSI is doing.  Generally, what we are seeing is general services that RAMSI is doing in a small way in our Province.
Anyway the one or two officers posted to our Province in Makira are doing a good work.  Generally, the little assistance they are giving us there is fine.  But to look at a much broader picture, I would like to state here that Makira Ulawa Province really appreciates the work of RAMSI in that it has restored law and order inside our country and also reviving the national economy which has drastically declined at that time. 
At the provincial level it would be very good if RAMSI is assigned specific things to do.  If I can stress the little work that RAMSI officers are doing in my Province, it is not quite big but small.  Even the two RAMSI officers themselves at one time made a statement, which sounds funny but they said “RAMSI is not doing very much in Makira Province”.  This is a statement made by RAMSI officers themselves saying that they are not doing very much in the Province.  I think that statement is true.  Besides little things like chasing vehicles, patrolling the station, transporting sick patients, traveling in speed boats to go looking for people committing crimes, and of course at times they also provided fuel to SIEA when it runs out of fuel.  Those kinds of activities and assistances were done by RAMSI.  But to perform work in a much bigger scale so as to cause a good impact in the communities is very small.  But I believe they could be able to do more.  I do not know what is missing there. 
One thing I see as very important that RAMSI should be involved in is going down to communities to conduct awareness programs, by way of conveying necessary information to people in the villages in regards to RAMSI’s roles and functions.  Of course, try and track down those who produce home brew like kwaso, which is a big problem in the province.  The production and illegal brewing of kwaso is a big problem in our province.  That is a problem, which we think RAMSI should assist us in trying to apprehend the culprits, not only by way of arresting them people but educate them through awareness programs. 
Anyway I am not going to talk very much because I am going to answer questions that you are going to ask me.  As I have already stated my comment is just a general one.  Thank you.

Mr Chairman:  Thank you, Premier of Makira Ulawa.  I just feel from your presentation that there is basically, I assume, a marketing problem for RAMSI.  What is your interpretation of RAMSI’s mandate?  What do you think would be the roles and functions of RAMSI, starting with you Deputy Premier of Isabel?

Hon Manasseh:  I think I have already touched very briefly today that the roles and functions of RAMSI are very clear, and that is to restore law and order in my Province, provide security and to strengthen and improve government mechanisms and infrastructure system.  That is the general understanding we have of RAMSI’s roles and functions.  However, we also expect that apart from their policing roles, RAMSI’ work should be extended down to communities in rural areas.  I think that is what my colleague Premier of Makira has highlighted, which is similar in smaller provinces. 
The understanding we have of RAMSI’s functions at this point in time is to go around in vehicles in the small town of Buala and to go out to arrest people in speed boats.  But to better understand the roles and functions of RAMSI, I think they should expand their activities, they should reach out to the communities.  
Governing on Isabel Province is based on the tribal system and the tribal system is the church, chiefs and the Government working together as the consultation body.  Hence, this is where RAMSI can fit in very well in their programs so that they can expand their roles and functions.  If RAMSI’s policy can be extended down to communities at the village level in their programs, I think it would be a difference.  .  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr Chairman:  Thank you.  Premier of Central Islands, do you share the same sentiments as the Deputy Premier of Isabel?

Hon Vasuni:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  Of course, I do share what he highlighted, but as I’ve said in my presentation, RAMSI should be assisting the Solomon Islands Police to ensure the maintenance of law and order in the country.  They should be maintaining supplies and services essential to the life of the community as well.  Maintaining law and order, as we have already highlighted and of course supporting the administration of justice and also supporting and involving Solomon Islands institutions whether it be in terms of finance or other sectors within the government machinery.  They should be helping the Solomon Islands Police Force during catastrophic events.  Thank you.

Mr Chairman:  Thank you.  Premier for Makira, if I could ask you one thing; if there is one single priority, one thing that is most needed in your province that RAMSI could help in its role, what would that be?  I know there is a lot of problems but if you could highlight just one and talk about it.

Hon Weape:   I think this would be a good opportunity to tell you my priority.  One single priority I would like to highlight at the moment is the Province’s ship given down to us under the Devolution Order and has been lying at Taroniara for repair but we are struggling to find funds to repair it.  I wonder if RAMSI can assist us to re-float that ship I would greatly appreciate it.

Mr Chairman:  Premier, have you asked them?

Hon Weape:  No, I didn’t ask them but there were a few times this year that I approached them conveying some of the Province’s needs to them.  However, I realized that some of the things we brought up to them were not in their agenda and so they are not prepared to do them.  For example, at one time we asked them to blast our reefs for safe passage of ships.  But certainly to answer your question, we did not ask them because we thought that maybe they would not be willing to help us out on that area.  
Mr Chairman:  In general, I think if you don’t ask then you don’t get.  It is very important that as leaders of provincial governments if you have a problem then you ask the national government or ask other organizations.  Don’t be afraid to do so.

Hon Weape:  To further comment on that statement you made.  In actual fact the government is already aware of the Province’s request.  The request was not made directly to RAMSI but we have already given the request when a delegation came over to the Ministry of Provincial Government, the Ministry of Finance and the Prime Minister’s Office.  We also submitted a small proposal through the Prime Minister’s Office to be forwarded to the ROC.  That was in June and we are still waiting.

Mr Chairman:  My next question to the Deputy Premier for Isabel is, when RAMSI came in, it has a specific mandate and a specific purpose.  Do you think it has changed since 2003?  Let me clarify it.  In 2003 the mandate was the rule of law, and so RAMSI came in to establish law and order.  Have we gone into the second phase of RAMSI’s work? 
Now that law and order has been established is there a next phase for RAMSI to do?  I think you have answered that by saying there should be more help into the provincial areas.  Can you specifically confirm to the Committee that there are things that RAMSI needs to do now and to basically move on from just the rule of law and law and order issues?

Hon Manasseh:  In terms of the role of RAMSI on what it has been doing since 2003 up until now, there has been a dramatic change in terms of strengthening government mechanisms where they have expertise provided to the province to look at trying to settle provincial debts and audit provincial accounts.  That is one very big improvement and achievement as well on the work of RAMSI in the province.  
In regards to policing, the improvement I can see here is high discipline of officers in the Solomon Islands Police Force working in our province, and there is also a closer working relationship between RAMSI and our Police Force.  Those are the improvements that I can see so far.  However, there are other things yet that needs to be done to work on from there.  One is to continue to uphold and pursue the court cases that RAMSI has been adjudicating, which were normally held in all sorts of places because we do not have infrastructures like court houses, which my colleague premier has also stated.  I think RAMSI should not bear the responsibility of improving infrastructures but it should be the responsibility of the government for that matter. 
The area that needs to be improved is rather than concentrating on arrest and policing in the police stations, they should really move down to the communities so that there is awareness programs held to prevent things like production of homebrew, kwaso and marijuana, which are creeping into the province this time.  Those are the areas that need more emphasizing by RAMSI.  RAMSI should move from where they are now and move down to communities in the province.  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr Chairman:  Thank you, Deputy Premier.  Premier of Central Islands, what do you think about capacity building and institutional strengthening as the next phase for RAMSI in your Province?   

Hon Vasuni:  To answer your question in regards to capacity building in my province, the training of police officers should be in place.  We had a visit from the Commissioner of Police a couple of years back where he assured us that they are going to construct residential houses for police officers at Yandina and Tulagi.  Since then nothing has happened to that assurance.  That is why one of my requests is for RAMSI to engage in such infrastructure development for my Province.

Mr Chairman:   The same question goes to the Premier for Makira and Ulawa.  What are you views about the next phase of RAMSI in its capacity building and institutional strengthening in your Province?

Hon Weape:  Certainly, a very important area is capacity building and strengthening of governing institutions in the Province because over the years, as we know, the system is deteriorating.  Therefore, if RAMSI is to broaden its roles, then one area to address is capacity development and institutional strengthening in the provinces. 
I also think provinces and communities need to inform the government what areas they need RAMSI to broaden its roles to assist in the province.  It should not be administered or dictated from the top to the provinces.  Like, say for instance, the government telling the provinces that this is what RAMSI is going to do in the provinces.  It should be those down there telling the government what RAMSI should be doing in the provinces and not the other way round.  This is because it is those down there that are feeling the problems and the hardships and whatever and therefore should know best what needs to be done for them.  I think if RAMSI is going to continue doing its work then the people, the provincial government, the churches, the non-government organizations down there need to come out and tell the government what they want RAMSI to do for them.

Hon. Boyers:   Just a general question.  There has been a lot of talk about RAMSI as operating a parallel government to the SI Government.  In view of this accusation and also in view of the expectations of RAMSI in economic recovery apart from law and order, do you feel this is true and do you also feel that premiers and their executive should have more interaction with RAMSI in relation to RAMSI’s mandate in Solomon Islands?

Hon Vasuni:  With regards to the Central Islands Province, of course, we do have dialogue with RAMSI Officers who are currently working with us.  But sad to say, as I have stated in my presentation that we only have one RAMSI personnel working in the Province and sometimes we have two.  But they have consultations with the provincial executive on a regular basis may be monthly or there are times when I called them to come and brief the administration and the executive on certain areas that we would like to hear from them.  Of course, we do have dialogue with RAMSI Officers that are stationed in Tulagi. 
On the thinking that RAMSI is operating a parallel government to that of my administration, it is not true in my case because they are working closely with us and are working together in partnership with the Solomon Islands Police Officers that are posted in Tulagi. 

Hon Manasseh:   We also have the same understanding.  The involvement of RAMSI officers in Isabel Province is that when important matters are discussed, we not only include government officers but RAMSI is always included; they always participate in our discussions; they are always called upon to be part of our deliberations or discussions. 
RAMSI is not involved in the decision making of the Executive.  But there is continuous dialogue and consultations by RAMSI personnel with the Police Commander in Charge in my province.  That is the position of Isabel Province. 
On the question of RAMSI taking over or not respecting the laws of the country, for us in Isabel we do not experience that.  As leader of the Province, what I would like to register here is that Solomon Islands is a sovereign country and therefore RAMSI must respect our sovereignty and the laws of the country.  Hence RAMSI’s undertakings and deliberations in the Province has been very good.  They are working very well with my government and they have a lot of respect in the Province, and I believe the same applies to other provinces.  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Hon Weape:  In Makira Province, I do not see RAMSI running a parallel government to us, and may be because RAMSI’s presence is not felt very much in Makira because there are only one or two officers working in the province.  But I think this issue has been raised and it is very important for the Government and RAMSI to be aware of.  We need to take note of that area.  The fact that it is raised is giving us indication that it is something for us to take note to ensure it does not happen so that in the end it undermines our nation’s sovereignty which can cause conflict.  
We have reservations in our thinking.  We would like to see this Mission properly administered to deal with the needs of our people, and not to the extent of going that far as creating a different picture.  But we do not have that problem in my province.  Thank you.

Hon. Tosika:  This is a simple question to Isabel Province.  I do understand that you have a tribal system and a chiefly system, and also people from Isabel Province are very peaceful people that we would not normally find too much problem with them. 
Basically RAMSI came in because of the ethnic tension between certain provinces and I can see that other provinces did not have any tension related problems.  The question now is, since Isabel Province is not part of the ethnic tension, even though some influences might be there but because of your tribal system and norms, is it really necessary for RAMSI to remain in your Province or do you think only the Solomon Islands Police should be there and RAMSI just assist in terms of logistic support?  This would be the same for Makira Province, who was not directly affected by the tension.  Thank you.

Hon Manasseh:   I think that is a very good question and I must be very careful in giving my views on this very important question that was raised. 
In regards to the presence of RAMSI in Isabel Province, although we were not heavily involved or there was no great impact of the ethnic tension, I think there is need and there is necessity for us to have RAMSI. 

We have had the ethnic tension which every one of us knows about, but Isabel Province also has its own problem.  On the presence of RAMSI, I think, you have already answered it that there is need for RAMSI because our local police officers do not have logistic support to help them in their work.  The presence of RAMSI in the province is giving us strength.  Also the presence of RAMSI in Isabel Province is giving an impact on the people because when our local police officers arrive in boats the people think it is RAMSI, and so it is giving signal to people to conduct themselves in proper manner all the time. 

In regards to the presence of our Police Force, may be because they are our wantoks with the same skin color, they sometimes will find a bit of difficulty to respond appropriately to them.  But at this point in time, whilst RAMSI is still here, it gives more leeway to assist our local police officers in Isabel Province. 
This is similar to the tripod system I mentioned earlier on.  Tripod is the consultative body that deals with the welfare of the same group of people.  The Churches are playing very active roles as well as the chiefs themselves and also the Provincial Government.  These three bodies are working together, hence the presence of RAMSI is giving more strength to these groups to carry out their work in the province.  I think that is all I can comment on, Mr. Chairman.

Mr Chairman:  Do you have any comments on that question, Premier of Central Islands.   

Hon Vasuni:  My province of Central Province was not a major player to the ethnic crisis but its spill-over effect was felt by us.  You can well recall the Yandina and Bungana stories, confirming that we really felt the effects of the ethnic crisis.  I would like to say here that even if there are not enough RAMSI personnel serving in our province, we still want perhaps 2 or 3 RAMSI officers to be with us for confidence building in our communities.  I think that is the message I would like to put across here.  Because in the absence of RAMSI, our people are going to feel that RAMSI has left us.  We need them right now even there is peace now but we do need RAMSI to build confidence in our communities and people of the Central Province.  Thank you.

Mr Chairman:  Thank you, Premier.  Premier for Makira, do you have any comments on that?

Hon Weape:  Certainly this issue has affected all the provinces.  Like my two honourable colleagues here were saying, its spill-over effects has reached all the provinces, and so Makira was affected in the same way. 
On the need for RAMSI to do something, I think RAMSI has been providing those little assistances I have already expressed to you.  If there is need for RAMSI to do more, certainly but in other areas identified by us.  
Anyway on the question of the presence of RAMSI, over the years their presence is restoring the confidence of people, but I don’t think it should continue to remain or stay on in the country because there is also danger or a bad side to it.  This is because people will continue to have confidence on RAMSI and they will not know how to end that confidence.  While that is the idea, there should be some kind of mechanism or measures taken to look at building the confidence of our people on our Police Force.  That one is very, very important because we cannot continue to depend on RAMSI all the time.  It would become a danger for us if we continue to do that.  That is my small statement on that question. 

Hon. Ghiro:   Apart from RAMSI’s role in your provinces, what are some of the areas you want RAMSI to focus more on?  This question is for the three of your premiers, and I am not going to repeat it but you answer it one after another. 

Hon Weape:  If I would like to tell you anything I would like RAMSI to focus on, the provincial government is working to put together a roadmap towards statehood, and so what we are seeing is that instead of the Makira Provincial Government depending on the national government to construct its roads or to lead us forward, the provinces need to build their own economic strength.  Economy is one important area I see that RAMSI should assist provinces by way of may be providing funds for investment projects.  For instance in Makira we want to revive the cattle industry as well as rice farms.  Today more people are eating rice, and yet its price is very expensive.  Those are some important areas that I would like to touch on, and of course infrastructure development in the province as well.  These are very important that needs to be in place.  Those are the three areas that we need assistance on.  There is need for assistance on economic development for investment.  We have our provincial business arm called MUPIC that we would like to revive because through MUPIC we should be able to generate funds to subsidize grants given to us by the government, which is not enough, it is very small, not enough to meet our services.  So MUPIC, a small business arm of the province can assist, and we would like that business arm of the province to be reactivated. 
We need some kind of funding to reactivate that arm so that it is able to work.  Having that will help the province generate its local revenue.  Thank you.

Hon Vasuni:  For us in Central Province, I think logistical support is what we really need.  You know, Mr. Chairman, our province consists of three islands namely, Savo, Ngella and Russells.  To properly monitor law and order in that province, we would need canoe, OBM, fuel and things like that.  I think the Police itself cannot meet all these things.  That is why I said that logistical support or assistance from RAMSI is very important for us.  
Secondly, as I have said earlier on infrastructure is what our police officers do not have.  In Yandina there are no RAMSI officers, and most of their houses are in dilapidated state.  RAMSI continues to support us with logistic support, but it is not enough.  As I said our province consists of three islands and so it is very expensive to monitor and look after it and so we need logistical support from RAMSI.  Thank you.

Hon Manasseh:  My Province is also on a similar footing.  If you ask me what I would want RAMSI to assist me with as my priority, I think that is what I mentioned in my statement, and that is I need one legal adviser.  That is my first priority like I told you in my presentation this morning.  Apart from that logistic support and infrastructure because our island is very long but our road is the shortest.  That is the priority need of my province.  

Hon Kengava:  Mr Chairman, I will share one comment, just to make us look a little bit deeper.  After listening to what sort of new role RAMSI should play in the provinces, it makes me feel as though we are asking the government to give us more development for this and that rather than asking the Ministry of Provincial Government.  I think this is the shortfall we are facing and we turn to RAMSI to help us on those shortfalls.  The current government is now coming up with a new partnership agreement with RAMSI, and in order to meet your needs, how would you like the government to come up with this new partnership agreement with RAMSI?  Thank you.

Hon Vasuni:  As far as Central Islands Province is concerned, I think the Government should just increase our grants and that should be okay.  It is because of insufficient funds that we continue to ask RAMSI for assistance or we keep on crying to RAMSI.  I think the national government in its next budget to Parliament should increase provincial grants and that could satisfy us to stop begging too much from RAMSI.  Thank you.

Mr Chairman:  Premier, how much extra do you want?

Hon Vasuni:  The current allocation to my provincial government as monthly service grant is $160,000.00 and that is not sufficient to serve the whole of Central Islands.  If that amount can be doubled or tripled it should be sufficient.

Mr Chairman:  We’ll take note of that.

Hon Manasseh:  I think the reason why my province is always calling on RAMSI is because we know that RAMSI has all the support in terms of finance when coming here to Solomon Islands, hence our first thought is that if our government is really struggling to help all of us throughout the whole Solomon Islands, why can’t RAMSI also help us.  I think that is the thinking, the position or the stand we have about RAMSI and so when you ask us questions we tend to say RAMSI every time.  But we know that the obligation is our government.  But knowing very well too that RAMSI when it came here it has all the assistance and funding too, and that is why instead of just restoring law and order, can it also assist us in other areas because it is here as our helping friend.  Thank you Mr. Chairman.

Hon Weape:  I think it is true that we always complain about RAMSI may be because we do not really understand its roles.  For us in the provinces we did not better understand the role of RAMSI and what RAMSI is supposed to be doing or what are we expecting from RAMSI.  In relation to the question raised to us that now the government is working on a package and therefore how do provinces want the government to address issues in relation to the package the government is probably working on now.  It is very important that the national government takes into account the needs of provinces.
As I have stated already Makira Province has established or put in place a development plan, which will be phased out in years what we expect to achieve by way of putting in place necessary infrastructures and training.  Training is also a component of the plan – human resource manpower. 
In regards to finance, of course, the grants given to our province is not enough.  And with the current minimum wage now in place, it is really killing the province making things more difficult.  There are many things we see as important that we want the government to address.  And the best way to address it is good consultation between the national government and the province, so that national government has a clear picture of the needs of provinces or how we are going to address the needs of provinces.  There are many things that need addressing.  I think it is good that we are working towards helping the provinces have strength so that they can start to look after themselves.  This way of asking things all the time can be shameful too.  Those are the few areas I would like to raise. 
If there is some kind of package prepared by the government then there must be consultation with the provinces, and it must be properly done so that money does not end up in wrong places, but it goes straight to the places it is intended for on problems faced by people in the rural areas in the various different sectors that people are finding hard time on.  Thank you.

Mr Chairman:  Thank you Premier for Makira.  Perhaps those things will have to be conveyed to the Prime Minister when he opens the conference in Temotu next week. 

Hon Soalaoi:  I think an issue the government scrutinized not long ago is the privileges and immunities of RAMSI personnel.  What is your Provinces’ understanding of these two issues - privileges and immunities of RAMSI personnel? 
If anything happens when they are still here in the country, when we talk about immunities it means they are covered from any prosecution, meaning our laws cannot deal with them.  What is your understanding of this as a provincial premier and even people in the provinces about these two issues of privileges and immunities?

Hon Weape:  Again just a general comment.  In the first place, the privileges and immunities of RAMSI personnel were not understood by the people.  Our people did not really understand the details of these privileges and immunities.  Even provincial governments are not really sure about it.  But if there is going to be privileges and immunities for them then it should be weighed against its pros and cons.  Immunities and privileges should only be at certain levels.  In making that statement I am not even sure myself how to measure it because I do not know what was in place at the first place. 
I think we need to look at situations in our country and put in place privileges and immunities just to a certain level that looks reasonable.  Because why would a person be totally free from the law.  I think that is not right.  That is my general comment on that question of privileges and immunities.

Hon Vasuni:  I think there has been much heated debate on this issue by you Members of Parliament when you deliberated on it.  But I agree with my colleague of Makira Province that it should be limited and not very wide and open.  If a man causes a problem here our law must take care of him.  But currently the law stops that, and we need to review it.  Thank you.

Hon Manasseh:  Mr. Chairman, I agree with my colleague premiers on the response they made.  In my point of view, those of us in the province did not really know the strength and power that RAMSI has in comparison to our Constitution that we uphold as a sovereignty country.  It is something that can be questioned, the power they have under privileges and immunities.  There is need for it to be scaled down or our national leaders have to address it at this Foreign Relations Committee that is going on at this time.  I want the committee to carefully consider this issue because it is disrespectful for someone to live in another community, causes problem in that community but is not held accountable for that problem because the law does not allow it.  That matter must be sorted out.  To be totally free from prosecution because of privileges and immunities is not right to me.  Thank you.

Hon Wale:  Just for more clarification.  Immunity is an important discussion but for you to better understand it so that you can better express your views on, Section 17 subsection 1 of the Act talks about the immunities of RAMSI officers, where it says, “members of the Visiting Contingent and Assisting Countries shall have immunity from legal proceedings in Solomon Islands courts and tribunals in relation to actions they took in the course of/or incidental to official duties”.  Therefore, when they are not in normal official duty and they shoot you that is a different matter altogether.  The immunity only extends to official duties. 
The question is, is that limiting it or it should not be there at all?  That’s really the core of the question regarding immunity so that we don’t talk very general and talking about all sorts of things that would sound as if they are immune from everything. 
As we can see on the case of the accident that happened not long ago and an officer was charged, it was not during official duties and also Section 17 of the Act was applied here whereby jurisdiction was relinquished over that case and our Police and DPP acted on it.  It is not open ended giving blanket cover or blanket immunity but it defines it a bit. 
The question that comes to you three is, do you think that is adequate or it should be removed or it should be broadened.  Thank you.

Hon Manasseh:  Otherwise I might say something not right and RAMSI runs away.  But as far as I am concerned it should broadened a bit more.  To say official hours and out of official hours is still not right to me because that is someone’s life.  Otherwise you intend to kill me during official hours.  Non official hour you would come, and shoot me, and I don’t want that.  To be specific whether working hour or not working hour, the law of the country must be upheld all the time.

Hon Vasuni:  Immunity is a very serious and very hard question.  To express my views on this, if in their capacity of executing duties then immunity applies and so they cannot be charged under our law when carrying out duties.  In my view, as expressed by my other colleague, let us broaden it so that it not only covers official hours. 
What I am trying to imply here now is that supposing there is a riot and order comes for him to do that action, then that is done within the law of that particular area.  But in the case of accidents and so forth, I think it is not justified for an accident to kill a human being.  Whether he is doing his work and because of his speed limit kills a human being, in my view, he/she must still be charged under our law, Solomon Islands law.  This is just my very personal view.

Hon Weape:  I don’t think I can make a very good observation on this.  There are many thoughts going on in my mind in regards to this issue.  Why should immunity be given at all?  I am just making this statement.  I have already said that it should be limited.  But actually I should say there should be no immunity at all.  May be that would not be right according to law or the thinking of the Mission, but that is my thinking on this issue.

Hon Soalaoi:  This is my last question.  I am on the area of confidence on our local Police Force.  What would be the long term effect on our local police officers should RAMSI remain here for a long time.  I heard some of you say that there is shift in the confidence of our people to RAMSI from our local police officers.  When RAMSI police officers come people respect them but when a Solomon Islands Police Officer comes, even though he is uniform, our people don’t respect him.  What would be your view as premiers on the long term negative impact that this shift of confidence would have on our local police officers.

Mr Weape:  I think I touched a bit on this issue earlier on.  It is one of my fear and I believe others too have the same opinion that if RAMSI is going to be here for a long time confidence in our Police Force will diminish.  Also if we are not careful of their connection and the thinking of people towards the impact of RAMSI’s work in the nation and to allow our people have a lot of confidence on RAMSI is dangerous and risky and will damage our Police Force because certainly people’s confidence on our own Police Force will gradually decrease. So that is one issue that I think we should be considering. If we have to keep RAMSI on then it should only be for a short period of time. But even in the meantime we need to see and make some kind of assessment to see how much trust and confidence has do our people have towards RAMSI in contrast to our local police officer. We need to see and actually find that out. If we see that it is alright, then it should be okay. But if not then this is a big issue which we should start at least start looking at.

Mr Manasseh: My thought on this question is that, I think it is very true to say that there are some communities that do not have any respect for our local Police officers and when a RAMSI officer appears it is then that they would start kicking around. One of the reasons for this I think is because this RAMSI officer is equipped with pistol on his waist and that is why it frightens people away.
To build confidence and for them to cooperate well I have suggested in my statement that it is the structure of Police that they must be careful of.  If we are going to give away all the key posts within the Police structure to RAMSI officers then that is the time when our own local police officers will be disappointed and frustrated. So I think the senior posts within the Police Force should be maintained by our local officers.  Thank you.

Mr Vasuni:  Yeah thank you Mr Chairman.  The belief and thought is that if RAMSI leaves our own Police Force will be able to look after us.  I think this is the basis and this is the focus by just everybody throughout the whole Solomon Islands.  And in my opinion, it is very, very important that at this point in time leading role and  the initiative to take up these positions, I think should be highly emphasize for our local Police officers. This is because taking over is one thing which requires us to be really prepared for it.  I think the presence of RAMSI at this point in time they have to work more closely with the our Royal Solomon Islands Police Force so that when the time comes that the government of the day decides that its high time that you phase out, the Royal Solomon Islands Police Force is intact. At this point in time, supposing they fill up all the senior positions, that will demoralize the mentality of our local police officers. And this is very important in terms of the structure, as my colleague has mentioned, they really need to look more closely on the structure of Police Officers and RAMSI who are working hand in hand at this point in time. 

Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Kengava:  Thank you, just one question because RAMSI has been here for 5 years now and I think more of our provinces are making sentiments that there are more areas to improve on; new roles, new functions and that would mean more time for RAMSI to stay in Solomon Islands.  So my question is, what is your provinces’ view in having a timeframe for RAMSI from now onwards and an exit plan for it.  Thank you.

Mr Manasseh:  Again Mr Chairman that’s a very, very good question.  Now for my province, we do not really have a timeframe for the exit of RAMSI. When considering the fact that it is not only us the province of Isabel that have concerns about RAMSI.  But seriously considering what has happened during the ethnic tension my opinion is that we are really ready as true brothers and sisters of the whole Solomon Islands, as one body.  We have recovered physically and mentally in our lives and because of the presence of RAMSI, at this point in time we have not seen any other reactions or serious areas of that nature hem arising in the country. 
And with the reconciliation process that we continue to pursue, it will be the answer to all the problems. That is the position of my province and hence the fact that we do not have any timeframe. This is because if this is true healing for the lives of those who have been affected during the ethnic tension which we have experienced then we are all aware that they have lost their loved ones, their properties just everything. And right behind their heart, there if we are to say, let us give them two years when RAMSI leave do you think our people will be safe? Do you think all the problems will not come up again so that we go back to the same experience? I think that is my opinion; if we can allow little bit more time so that the government and ourselves can try and look at this issue rather than putting a time frame say for certain years before they leave.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Vasuni:  I think we in the Central Province also hold the same view being highlighted by the Deputy Premier of Isabel. We don’t have a timeframe set for the departure of RAMSI.  The big issue is for the Central Government and the Provincial Government, more especially Malaita and Guadalcanal Provinces, who are currently meeting to discuss the intended national peace and reconciliation program. So that can only be done smoothly or effectively with the presence of RAMSI. But if we do that one on our own, I don’t think that that peace process or reconciliation will be effective. So I for one will say that RAMSI can stay on for the next- earlier on Lokopio has said 5 to 8 years- I will say 8 to more than 10 years.  Thank you.

Mr Chairman:  Thank you Premier, you are saying that RAMSI creates the environment for peace to take place here in our country.

Mr Vasuni:  That is exactly what I am trying to say.  It is because of RAMSI’s presence that we are able to live in a free environment to do all these activities or daily activities we are enjoying today. So on that note, I don’t think reconciliation and all the other programs could be done quickly. That can be done say perhaps in the next 8 to 10 years. That is why am saying the presence RAMSI is necessary.

Mr. Weape:  Maybe, I will have a different opinion on that question being raised but seeing that we would like to develop our infrastructures and so forth, and that RAMSI will facilitate that, I think we would allow RAMSI to stay for some times.  I do not see it that way; we have other donor partners like other countries and other organizations that can assist to put these infrastructures in place.  That does not mean that I would like RAMSI to leave quickly, but I would only say anything regarding exit strategy based on the position of the province. 
With regards to the nature of work that has been done in the province and the amount of work done by RAMSI,  I think we can now start working on an exit strategy for RAMSI; that is my opinion regarding the my province alone. Okay regarding the gradual move towards maintaining the confidence of the people on RAMSI, I think the RAMSI Police officers and those relating to police work must be the first to leave the province and RAMSI can put in their other personnel who deals with finance or capacity building in their place so that the local Police can work on their own, and of course with the continuous presence of RAMSI in the country.  That is my thought, but then I am also concerned about other provinces that see the importance of maybe continuing maintaining the work of RAMSI. But regarding my province that is how I see it. May we can start working some kind of strategy for them to move out. Thank you.

Mr Chairman:  Two more questions from the Committee.

Mr Tosika:  Thank you Mr Chairman. This is just a simple question. Pertaining to what the Premier of Makira has said, the question now is if the government gives a mandate that RAMSI will leave the provinces like Isabel province, Makira, Central because it may have some spill-over effects there, but they will still remain at Malaita and Guadalcanal and other provinces like Western Province and so forth.  But for the other provinces may be the government will give a mandate that for two years RAMSI will do the things that those provinces would want them to do and then they would leave; in terms of law and order that they would only concentrate on Honiara. What would be your reaction on this that is if RAMSI is given a mandate to move come back to Honiara from the provinces but no go out from country to concentrate on maintaining law and order, that is being very mindful of other provinces like Malaita, Guadalcanal and others which have been active parties to the conflict.  Thank you.

Mr Weape: Like I have said regarding our province, if the government decides to take back RAMSI Police officers to Honiara, I see that as a good idea. But other officers and personnel as I have said can be posted to us; those that can help us in other areas so that existence of RAMSI is maintained in the provinces.

Hon Tosika:  Mr Chairman, why I have asked that question is because there a lot of agreements in place, like bilateral agreements, which we can involve in to seek assistance from the member countries and countries that we have such understanding with to supply advisors, like legal advisors in your case. We don’t necessarily need RAMSI in this case to supply those officers to support you. We have a bilateral agreement in place which we can venture into and seek and assistance from those aid donors that can assist us apart from the RAMSI assistance.  Thank you.

Mr Chairman:  Do you have any comments on that question.  Yes, we will proceed to the last question.

Hon Boyers:  I would like to know the opinion or the feeling of your people when they see RAMSI personnel carrying firearms in public?

Mr Manasseh: Firstly, in the communities and my province people have expressed fear.  They are afraid not because they will be shot but I think it is because it is new and it is not normal for them to them to see people carrying firearms around.  But as time goes on, when these personnel carry their firearms with them during their patrols and other visits to the communities, the understanding at this point in time is that everyone have accepted that it is part of their work. That is the case of my province. And also when they try to deal with other issues on cases where they are required to go out and carry out their official duties, because they carry their firearms around with them that fear remains and they can easily come on board. Now in my province it is really not necessary for them to wear their guns at this point in time because I think they are really no needed. But if it is part of their role and duties that they have to have guns with them all the time, then we are flexible; we can accept that. I think that is the position of my province.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Vasuni:  In relation to the Central Province, what I have witnessed from our RAMSI Officers is that they put on their guns or pistols only when they are on duty. When they off duty, I do not see anyone of them wearing their firearms. But anyway, I think for the purpose of building public confidence, I think there are times that they should have their firearms with them and also times when they should not carry their guns with them.  Gun, like the Premier of Western has said earlier, can only be taken with you when there is a need for it.   But in the rural setting, it is true that whenever people are seen carrying firearms others will be afraid. So I feel that with regards to firearms, when RAMSI officers are on duty they should be armed but when they are off duty they should not be carrying firearms around. Thank you.

Mr Weape:  Thank you. Yes, in the early days of RAMSI’s arrival in Solomon Islands and when the soldiers carry their guns around with them, people were really fearful. They were really afraid. But then, like the other two colleagues have mentioned, over the years people, including children have get used to seeing them carrying firearms around. And I totally disapprove that because it makes it look like it is a normal thing to carry firearms around in Solomon Islands. If people in other countries see pictures of that happening in Solomon Islands they will think that people in Solomon Islands are criminals because guns are carried around in the streets. So I disapprove this practice and I think it is enough; they should not carry guns around with them.

Mr Chairman:  Thank you very much.  I thank the Deputy Premier for Isabel, Premier for Central Islands and Premier for Makira Ulawa.  Thank you for participating in this meeting. 

Sitting suspended for break

Mr Chairman: Could you state your name and position for the records please? 

Mr. Kiloe: My name is Jackson Kiloe, Premier of Choiseul Province.

Mr Johnston: My name is Timothy Johnston, Premier of Rennel-Bellona Province.

Mr. Mua:  My name is Andrew Mua, Mayor for Honiara City.

Mr Chairman: Can I take the Premier for Choiseul first, would you care to make a presentation for us?

Mr Kiloe:  Thank you, Chairman, and all Honourable Members of your esteemed committee. I am indeed honoured and privileged to be given this opportunity to make my submission to you on this important subject.  May I point out that the views expressed in this submission are based on my personal observations and may not necessarily reflect the views of the provincial assembly.  I do hope that our assembly members and our rural people are given an opportunity to express their views on this review later on.
At the outset, may I thank RAMSI for their assistance in restoring order in our nation.  Those of us who witnessed the cease fire negotiations, leading up to the eventual signing of the TPA, placing ourselves under certain level of risks at times, could say that RAMSI was a blessing.
May I also acknowledge the prayers of all our people and the wisdom of our political leaders then, who provided the legislative arrangements to allow RAMSI into our country to assist us.
On the mandate and functions and roles of RAMSI; prior to the arrival of RAMSI some 5 years ago, things were just chaotic in this country.  One of the greatest freedoms that we have enjoyed and taken for granted over the years- “the freedom from fear” was taken away from us.  All our people, especially our women and children, even from provinces far from Honiara experienced this fear.
RAMSI came into this country under those circumstances; their roles for defined and dictated by the situation then. Their immediate task then was to restore some form of order. Judged against that initial role, RAMSI could be said was resounding successes.  They have assisted us in restoring law and order. 
May I point out thought that “restoring” law and order is one thing, “maintaining” that order is quite another.  RAMSI have succeeded in restoring law and order, maintaining law and order is the responsibility of the Solomon Islands government and every Solomon Islands citizen.  But we can appreciate that this is not going to be easy, given our economic situation.  We need encouragement and assistance.  I feel that RAMSI has a role here.  Perhaps a starting point would be to encourage RMSI to utilize locally available goods and services.
Their role could also be expanded to ensure RAMSI moves into assisting us with some infrastructural developments to boost economic activities in the rural areas.  Engaging our people in economic activities does not only act as a deterrent to unlawful behaviours, but also allows us to improve our economic situation, to generate much needed resources required to sustain law and order, and provide basic services which is not cheap. Failing this, the resources and good efforts expended into restoring law and order by RAMSI may be in vain, because we could not afford to sustain it.

On the Operations of RAMSI in Choiseul Province; two RAMSI PPF officers are posted to Taro, our provincial centre at any given time.  Initially there appears to be some confusion amongst the Royal Solomon Islands Police officers as to who should head the police; the PPC or the RAMSI PPF officer?  Even the public appeared to have this confusion.
At the first arrival of RAMSI some 5 years ago, there appears to be a lot of respect given to RAMSI officers. This came about because the officers then were very active in arresting people, especially drunkards, misbehaving in public, and the general fear of the perceived powers RAMSI were said to possess. Sadly, over the years this respect and fear of RAMSI are somehow diminished, and the respect given to policing in general has dropped. This maybe so because are number of reasons, and I’d like to highlight a few:-

1. Offenders, especially drunkards, and kwaso producers appear to be given light punishments, if at all.
2. RAMSI officers are based only in the Provincial Centre and are rarely see in the villages.  This also goes for our local Police officers.
3. People’s expectation of what RAMSI would do did not appear to be so in action. And there are also evident of some communication barriers as very few RAMSI PPF officers posted to the province attempt to learn and speak pidgin fluently.

Having highlighted those challenges Mr Chairman Sir, the success stories are over whelming:

1. Law and order was general restored, especially the criminal elements taking advantage of the break down of order around the year 2000 up to 2003 are no longer there.
2. Criminal elements involving individuals from neighboring Bougainville have virtually disappeared.  The boarder has become more peaceful.
3. Certain RAMSI officers were very supportive in community activities, for example in market clean up campaigns, fundraising drives and church activities.  This of course depends on individual PPF officers.

On the expectation of RAMSI; peoples’ expectations of RAMSI are not necessarily limited to the mandate given to RAMSI under the Facilitation Notice.  We may have expected much more than what RAMSI is legally allowed to do.  This has resulted in disappointments when RAMSI appears to be doing little which contributed to the general drop in respect for RAMSI.
We seem to have this misconception that RAMSI would assist the provinces in its infrastructural developments, rather than being confined to policing roles alone. It would be of great assistance to our province if RAMSI’s role could be broadened to assist in provincial capacity building.

On the Duration of RAMSI’s stay; I do not think a time frame could possibly be set for RAMSI’s withdrawal from Solomon Islands.  An exit strategy must be based on and linked to the achievement of set goals rather than a time frame and this set goals are:-

1. That all reconciliation ceremonies amongst all parties are done
2. The confidence of the people on the Royal Solomon Islands Police to maintain law and order is restored
3. The root causes of the ethnic tension are identified, and dealt with
4. All crisis victims are acknowledged and given appropriate support

These, of course can only be achieved if RAMSI works in partnership with the government and relevant stakeholders. Perhaps we should also seriously consider and engaging RAMSI to assist us on the peace process.
On the relationship with Royal Solomon Islands Police; as I have alluded to earlier, initially, there appeared to be some confusion amongst local police officers as to who should be the head of police in the province, either the Provincial Police Commander or the RAMSI PPF officer? This has since improved, when RAMSI officers now appear to concentrate more on their advisory roles.  This of course varies depending on individual RAMSI officers as well.
It is apparent that Royal Solomon Islands Police officers are somewhat inactive or reluctant in carrying out duties, especially the arrest of misbehaving drunks when RAMSI PPF officers are not around.  This may breed our dependency on RAMSI, and poses a very big question on the local officers’ ability or willingness to maintain law and order once RAMSI pulls out of the province. It is unclear whether this is a RAMSI-Royal Solomon Islands Police relationship issue or just another bad effect of the wantok system.  Or perhaps certain Police officers have been in our province for far too long and may need to be posted elsewhere.
Chairman and all Honourable Members of your esteemed committee, thank you so much for giving me time to present my submission.  In closing, may I make some observations on the review in general.
It appears Sir, that we are focusing our attention on what RAMSI has done, what it can do and what it should do, or what it should not do.  I firmly believe that we should be focusing more on what we, as a government and as a nation should do to ensure this partnership works.  Let us not forget that RAMSI came into this country because of our own shortcomings.  Let us not forget that untold sufferings endured by our people, especially our women and children as a result of the dark events of 1998 to 2003.  Nothing hurts more than seeing an innocent child cry. 
In those dark years let us acknowledge the strength of the rural subsistence economy that held this country together.  It is my humble plea that whatever we do in this review, whatever partnership framework we may decide on, it must be for the ultimate aim of empowering our people politically, economically, socially and academically to take control of our destiny to avoid a repeat of those sad events. 
I believe that RAMSI has done its part.  It has assisted wipe the fears and tears of our children.  It is now your duty and my responsibility to bring smiles back to the faces of our children so that we can truly call this nation the “happy isles” once more.  I believe we can all face up to the challenge.  Thank you.

Mr Chairman:  Thank you very much, Premier from Choiseul.  What can I say?  I think you’ve hit it on the spot?  Absolutely!  Thank you very much for that. 

Hon Johnstone (Premier of Renbel Province): Mr Chairman and Committee members, honourable colleagues and Premiers and the rest of us in this session, first of all I wish to thank you for the opportunity to express some of my thoughts and that of my province about RAMSI on this very important exercise of putting together our thoughts on the review of the very important work done by RAMSI.  I wish to acknowledge and thank the great initiation of RAMSI for coming over to this country to help us restore security and order.  And today we are enjoying the fruits of that good work by those committed to this wonderful and great initiative.
            At the outset, I wish to also stand alongside my colleague Premiers’ submissions today about the work of RAMSI in the country, and so as our Province.  The work of RAMSI is undoubtedly a most important work done to this nation because of the history that we came through, we know everything, which has been a great setback for the country, and so we greatly acknowledge the work RAMSI has done to secure peace and security followed by normalcy, progress and development activities in our nation. 
My overall comment is that I fully support and acknowledge here the fine work done by RAMSI.  After all, good help is not something easy, and my question is how many countries in the world did Solomon Islands intervene to restore peace and security.
It’s also true on the same note that there are shortfalls by RAMSI.  But let us all remember that a man’s work is not always perfect but those are things we can work on.  But I really appreciate the overwhelming good work done in our nation. 
            My Province is a very small province in the country and also isolated, but one thing is that we are the same in political status, and therefore, I am greatly concerned about the security, peace, stability and advancement of our nation.
            With regards to the work of RAMSI in my province, so far they’ve done very well.  There are not many officers around in my province but the very few officers who are there are providing logistic support and security to our Province, which is very important and that means a lot to me. 
I’d like to say here that the work of RAMSI in relation to other areas that we want to comment on and put our submissions to the Committee, maybe I’ll just run through a few of them, maybe three or four points to point out to this Committee in my submission.  But I’d like to say that there is one area I’m particularly interested in, and this is on the thinking to broaden the work of RAMSI.  I think most of the work in regards to security and restoring of peace were already done and may be only a few work is yet to be done but maybe RAMSI should also focus on assisting our communities.  Taking into account Solomon Islands, especially our Provinces, Solomon Islands is a nation of many villages for that matter and our villages are still struggling on many things, things to do with their basic needs like infrastructure and all that.  The national government and donor partners are helping out but the task is too great to make sure our people are alleviated from the poverty level and raise their standard of living.  I’m very interested in this area and so the work of RAMSI should be broadened to cover development activities in rural areas and provinces.  
            On the idea of an exit strategy for RAMSI, I also stand alongside my other colleagues that we should be talking about a time frame that should give us a good number of years for RAMSI to stay with us to complete left over works before they can gradually exit from the country. 
            One other area I’m really interested in as I experienced in my province and I do hope other provinces have the same experience is that of capacity building and institutional strengthening of our province.  It maybe true that the Provincial Government and other stakeholders are also helping out in this area but we feel that RAMSI’s mission to help must also be extended to these areas, one of which is the judiciary system in the provincial areas as well as Police Officers back home.  We also have our own provincial officers we called local constables and these local constables are living right amongst people in the villages and may be with the very limited support of the province, the RAMSI can help in providing logistic support to them in terms of uniforms and other things to enable them carry out their work effectively in our local communities is very important.  RAMSI should also uphold the security standards in many villages and the rural dwellers. 
There is also concern on the area of transportation in our province, talking about road transportation, may be sea transportation, canoes and all that, is an area that RAMSI should help the province on.  This may sound impractical to urban dwellers but our rural Solomon Islanders find transportation very hard back at home, and therefore with help from other stakeholders, the national government and provincial authorities, I feel that RAMSI should step out to help in this area. 
            Another thing experienced by my province is something in relation to food security like birds destroying our gardens were controlled by guns in the first place but these birds are now growing in population destroying our food gardens, and RAMSI should help in trying to reduce the number of birds that are destroying our gardens.  Those are the needs of our people.  I’d like to say here that my Province is quite isolated from the country and the work of RAMSI out there is going on very well.  I’d like to say that I still need them to be in my province.  I need their support and their presence will always be needed.  It is true that peace and security has returned but RAMSI is there to also provide additional support in terms of law and order. 
With these few general comments about the work of RAMSI, I’d like to submit to the Committee that I really support the work of RAMSI.  With the shortfalls that have already been highlighted by many of my colleagues, those are things that would be dealt with but generally I fully support the work of RAMSI in the country. 

Mr Chairman:  Thank you Premier for Rennell and Bellona.  Lord Mayor, can I have a statement from you?

Mr Mua (Lord Mayor of Honiara City):  Mr Chairman, first of all I would like to thank the Chairman and members of the Committee for the opportunity given to the Honiara City Council to present our views on the enquiry into RAMSI. 
            Mr Chairman, RAMSI came to Solomon Islands by an invitation from the Solomon Islands Government.  RAMSI came into the country with a mandate stated in the Facilitation Act, Mr Chairman.  Its function is to assist and support Solomon Islands Government and its agencies in the areas of law and order, justice, strengthening of government machineries and capacity building of government agencies, which includes provincial governments and the City Council to provide better and efficient services to our people, Mr Chairman.
            Mr Chairman, I would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge and express my warm appreciation for RAMSI assistance in returning law and order and security within the Honiara City.  As you are aware, Honiara was the centre of much violence and destruction that left the city’s infrastructures and businesses in ruin.  The communities’ confidence shattered and individual citizens were concerned for their safety, Mr Chairman.  The Council itself suffered a huge loss in income from losses of businesses in Honiara, which saw a subsequent reduction in service delivery to citizens of Honiara. 
Mr Chairman, the crisis is not the making of the residents of Honiara.  The Council believes that RAMSI has been successful in assisting the local Police agencies restoring law and order to the City of Honiara.  For this, the Council and citizens of Honiara are grateful to RAMSI.
There is now renewed confidence for businesses, the community and visitors, which is very important if we are to attract tourism and development, not only in Honiara but the country as a whole to have trust and to have a law enforcement agency that provides better legal services to the citizens and people of Honiara and the country as a whole. 
RAMSI needs to ensure regular discussions and meeting with the Council on its programs and inductions.  The Council is responsible for the running of the city but there is no relationship between RAMSI and the Council.  We suggest that this should be rectified. 
Mr Chairman and the Committee, there is a lot of talk on the exit of RAMSI.  A carefully planned RAMSI exit strategy is very important.  It is very important, especially for Honiara City as a victim of the ongoing destruction.  However, the Council suggests that this should not be made too soon unless the Solomon Islands Government and agencies are ready for the task through capacity building at all levels.  The Central Government, the Provincial Governments and other local government agencies, the NGOs, and stakeholders must be ready to shoulder the burden when RAMSI leaves. 
Mr Chairman, I would like to respectfully thank you and your Members for inviting the Honiara City Council to make its submission.  I hope our input would be of assistance to you and we look forward to the result of the inquiry and a positive outcome for the citizens of Honiara and the rest of the country, Mr Chairman. 
With these few remarks, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to be here this afternoon.  Thank you, sir.

Mr Chairman:  Thank you, Lord Mayor.  My question will be directed to the Premier Choiseul.  You mentioned freedom from fear.  Do you believe you are getting justice for your people now?

Mr. Kiloe:  I’ve around during the crisis time as a provincial assembly member until today.  During that time, a lot of people were taking advantage of the general breakdown of law and order in our nation, and Choiseul is no exception.  During that time we can actually see people holding guns and going around, may be in boats or vehicles.  This made children scared of even going to school and women afraid of going freely to their gardens.  But since the arrival of the RAMSI in 2003, I believe that confidence has been restored and so children can now go to school without fear, women are once again going to the gardens freely, and especially confidence on businesses.  Today whatever was sent by ship would not be taken away from them.  There is the confidence that whatever they do will not be taken away from them by somebody.  That fear is actually an internal fear with regards to personal feelings or in regards to their properties or their business activities.  I believe today this freedom has been restored in our province.  Thank you.

Mr Chairman:   Just a follow up question and I’ll ask the same question to other premiers.  Do you understand the difference between and SIG, donor partner and RAMSI participation in terms of aid to this country?  Can you comment on that?

Mr. Kiloe:  Yes, I understand the role of RAMSI, the role of donor partners and maybe the role of the government.  Over the years, we complain may be because we are trying to get RAMSI do what the government fails to do or maybe ourselves too fail to do.  And that is the failure.  The linkage between the needs of people in the rural areas and the support actually provided up here do not match.  In other words, our development plans are not based on needs but it is based on priorities that people can support, and it is based on what they can fund, and not based on what we need.  That is the difficulty because they don’t match.  But we totally understand the role of donor partners, the role of RAMSI and the role of government too in our rural areas.  Thank you. 

Mr Chairman:  Premier for Rennell Bellona, the same question applies to you.  Do you know the different roles of SIG, Aid Donors as well as RAMSI?  Can you explain that?

Mr. Johnstone:  Mr Chairman, I understand the different roles.  We have the political roles of the government, which is straightforward, and I know it.  I also understand the role of donor partners, as well as RAMSI.  But my comment for further RAMSI help is to extend it to at least to shoulder some of the things the government cannot meet.  But I understand the different roles of the different stakeholders.  Thank you. 

Mr Chairman:  Premier for Renbell, what do you think of the community outreach program that RAMSI has been doing?  Has it been successful or do you have any comment on it? 

Mr. Johnstone:  My comment would be, yes it has been very successful because I have seen it in my own province.  It is a very important work to extend to the wider Solomon Islands that awareness must first be made to our people so that they know very well what is going on.  I think that is a very important work of the Mission.  Thank you.

Mr Chairman:  Thank you Premier.  Lord Mayor, there must be some differences in RAMSI’s role for the Province and RAMSI’s role for an urban area.  Can you tell us the differences of RAMSI’s role in the urban area compared to the provincial sector? 

Hon Mua:  If we look at RAMSI’s role within Honiara City and other provinces there is a big difference.  RAMSI is concentrated more in Honiara than in other provinces.  We also look at RAMSI from different angles.  Some look at RAMSI as an aid donor, others look at RAMSI as somebody who is there to do infrastructures and other services.  The role of RAMSI is to maintain and enforce law and order, to see proper justice, strengthening of government machineries and capacity building, as stated in the Notice.  But we tend to confuse the involvement of RAMSI to the involvement of other NGOs and what is expected from aid donors.  Thank you Chairman.

Mr Chairman:  Just before you leave the microphone, I want to ask a question.  You mentioned capacity building.  What sort of standard are you looking at from an urban area? What sort of standard?  First world or second world?

Hon Mua:  Come again, Mr Chairman.

Mr Chairman:  What I want to know is what sort of standard do you want in terms of RAMSI’s capacity building in Honiara?

Hon Mua:  I wouldn’t comment for the National Government but for the Honiara City.  Within the City there is need to look at strengthening of our financial capacity, our service delivery and also amendment to our bye-laws that we need legal advisors to assist us in that area.  Without their assistance and giving support to build upon, the government is not giving us what we need to build our capacity within those areas.  Thank you.

Mr Chairman:  Thank you.

Hon. Wale:   I will go back to the Premier of Choiseul, Premier, the Honourable Jackson Kiloe and the other leaders could answer in turn as well.  You spoke about an exit strategy and what could be the qualitative reference points.  You spoke about reconciliation and other things that would help us gage whether or not we are ready for RAMSI to exit.  This is very important in terms of qualitatively ascertaining whether we can stand ourselves in terms of law and order and security they can leave or cut down on it?  You also raise the point that rather than asking what RAMSI should do, we should be asking ourselves what we should be doing, the SIG, which includes provincial governments.

I’m going to ask all of you, from your own vantage point as Provincial Premiers and as Lord Mayor of Honiara City, what do you see as important that you have to do and the SIG must do?  Of those, what would be key pointers or reference points within the partnership agreements the government is going ahead to work on with RAMSI to help move us into that so that our commitments and obligations in that framework is meaningful.  Of course, it has to be realistic.  We don’t have all the money, we don’t have all the resources, we probably don’t even have as much resources as RAMSI is able to attract, and so it’s within a realistic framework.  Thank you.

Mr. Kiloe:  Sorry, if I don’t answer your question correctly, but I would like to indicate a few points, in my own thinking what we should achieve as a nation before RAMSI pulls out of the country.  And also emphasize the part that we as a government and as people of Solomon Islands and as individuals can play to ensure peace comes back to our nation. 
I think the first thing is to ask ourselves why RAMSI came in at the first time.  RAMSI came in because of problems in the country and our aim is not to repeat that.  You might find link between poverty and lawlessness. 
Why I am trying to bring in the point that RAMSI has done its part, it at least brought some order back and maintaining that order is quite expensive depending on whatever resources we have.  The capacity for us to maintain that order is in doubt now.  That is why I feel what the government should be doing, and what provinces should be doing is to try and empower ourselves economically so that we stand on our two feet.  It is good to assist us either aid donors, RAMSI or whoever but those assistances must not breed dependency but support us so that we can learn to help ourselves.  That is quite important.  The government must be very mindful that we must not breed dependability concept on our people, which is a big worry now.  Aid donors and even politicians must be concerned about this.  People must know that even if we keep RAMSI here for a million years they are not going to solve our problems.  We must learn to stand on our two feet to solve our own problems. Thank you.

Hon. Wale:  Before you pass the microphone, you really hit an important note there, and so I want to follow up with a question that the other two might be thinking about as well.  The question is example of what is it to help you and your provincial government to stand on your own feet financially or economically.  What kinds of examples do you have in mind?

Mr. Kiloe:  Yes, it might be different from province to province on its strengths and weaknesses.  In our case in Choiseul, the strength right now, tomorrow I don’t know, is copra.  That is the strength.  What we should be aiming at, people in the rural areas, this is rural development policy, is to assist these people so they can produce more copra.  It is assisting buyers so that they can buy copra so that when somebody brings their copra to the shed, they are not given receipts but they are given cash.  It is assisting business people to get their copra from Choiseul to Honiara.  That is all it is.  If that is done we will stand on our two feet.

Hon Johnstone:  This is an additional comment on that question.  What I am thinking about is this, and this is in relation to the justice system in our country.  If great support goes to the provinces, may be the national government and Honiara, to make sure our justice system works well as well as law and order, if that work is going on, if that goes well across the country plus working on the reconciliation efforts, I think that should prepare the country.  Apart from the economic question which my other colleague has answered, I think if those works are completed, those are some of the major works that should be put in place, then we should talk about exiting RAMSI.  Those are very important areas that should be taken into consideration when we about exiting RAMSI.   

Hon Mua:  I think honorable Premier of Choiseul has answered the question, and that is self reliance.  When we look at Honiara City we need counterparts to work along that RAMSI officer so that when he leaves the country I acquire the skills that I need.  Counterpart work is very important now so that when RAMSI leaves I can easily take over.  However, when you look at the length of time that RAMSI officers or advisors spend in the offices is only for six months and then they leave.  How much can we actually achieve within that short period?  I leave that to the government to look at.  Thank you. 

Hon. Kengava:  I totally agree with my Premier on what he said.  I think it is time now that we must look at how we ourselves can rebuild the economy, the social life and also law and order through the assistance of RAMSI now in the country. 
I think the current CNURA Government, in my view, is in the right track by coming up with this idea of making a new partnership framework with RAMSI, which is now in negotiation or preparation stage.  I think this is a good opportunity for all of us to contribute to this new framework, as it might address some of the things we raised at this hearing. 
My question is, as Premiers of the provinces what would you like your role to be in contributing to this new Partnership Framework Agreement so that it can be finalized by the end of the year?  Thank you.

Mr. Johnstone:  The other two colleagues will say their bit later.  I think our role is clear.  Our provinces in the country, the support we would like to also contribute to lies very much on good governance at the provincial level.  I don’t know how the national government considers the provinces but the experiences we are following, we find it very hard with the limited budgetary support given by the government.  We (the provincial governments) are at the level of our people, but we find it very hard to meet the needs of the people because we are with the people everyday. 
My point is that if the national government strongly supports the provincial governments, it would help very much in putting together our people to go along with the work we are trying to do in relation to the RAMSI question and the other work we are trying to achieve.  Thank you.

Mr Chairman:  I’ll ask the same question to the Lord Mayor.  Lord Mayor, what would you put in that Partnership Agreement from Honiara’s perspective?

Hon Mua:   I would say that we need more dialogue on the issue, and we have to go down right to the grassroots to get the views of people down there on what they think that they want to be in partnership agreement document.  When that is done we can then gradually come up to the local government level and then to the national government level.  But the views of the people must be taken on board.  There is need for wider consultations with the people on this matter.

Mr. Kiloe:  Thank you for the very good question.  On the framework, I am sorry to say that it has not reached my province yet and so I’m not really aware what is going ahead and what are its plans and its intentions but if they do…..

Mr Chairman:  Excuse me, are you telling me that the SIG has not consulted your provincial government when they are negotiating the framework right now?

Mr. Kiloe:  Yes, that is the case. 

Mr Chairman:  Okay, continue.

Mr. Kiloe:  Sorry, if I did not answer your question properly because as I said I am not aware of the framework.  But if they do come it is very important for us to strengthen consultation. 
I believe to get this country going and especially my province going, we must address the needs, and there must some strong linkage between what are the needs of grassroots as expressed in provincial development plans so that at the end they become part of the national development plan.  There must be that link because those things must be sustainable.  There is no point asking somebody to build a hospital where you cannot put a nurse in it.  It’s no point building a school when you can’t put a teacher in it or you cannot provide books for it.  Whatever is given to us is not something forced down our throat, but it must be what we need and must work well in our situation.  That is quite important, and we feel consultation is more important so that we don’t raise high expectations of the people when we reach the rural areas.  It must be what is realistic we can do to help them and what they need to do to help themselves because their input to make it work is very important.  Right now if they just sit down folding their hands and expect RAMSI or may be a Member (they treat us Members like a god) when there is a need they run to honourable Members.  That is what they do and so it’s important that we don’t raise their expectations.  I feel we must be consulted and be realistic too in our requests.  Thank you.

Hon. Soalaoi:  Mr Chairman, I think the Premier of Choiseul Province raised a very important point.  I think sustainability is very important even for lasting peace.  I was just about to ask the same question on whether there has been any consultation between SIG, RAMSI, the Provinces and the City Council.  I think the answer has come out that Choiseul Province is not yet consulted.  
My next question is, in terms of provinces measuring achievement on the part of RAMSI, how is that done in the provinces in the absence of time frame? 

Mr Chairman:  Would you mind repeating the question?

Hon. Soalaoi:  We have been talking about achievements and acknowledging RAMSI, and I share the same sentiments.  My question is, how do we measure achievements in the provinces because we are talking to you Premiers now?  How do we measure that in the absence of a time frame?  I don’t want to use the word ‘exit strategy’ because a lot of people don’t like it.  How do we measure achievements when we talk about RAMSI in the absence of a time frame?  Thank you.

Mr. Kiloe:  If I can get your question rightly.  We have highlighted certain things that we think needs to be done before RAMSI finally leaves the country.  And as I said, in our case, we cannot place any real time frame on it as it could be one year or two years or if we can achieve it within six months, then so be it.  But we have to have goals that must be achieved before RAMSI leaves us. 
Measuring the achievements depends on what sort of measurement one would like to use.  In our case, as I said, the general confidence that freedom has come back.  And you can’t put a cost on that freedom.  I think it is worth billions of dollars.  It is the freedom that you are free to work from point ‘a’ to point ‘b’ without somebody intimidating you.  That is what we experienced during those dark times.  Generally, we can say that has been achieved. 
The only concern, and that is why I made the link between sustaining that order is that we don’t go back to the same situation again.  That is why I link the confidence we must have on our Solomon Islands Police Force to maintain it.  To measure that is a bit difficult because it differs from person to person the sort of measurement to use. 
            But I’d like to think that these Police Officers too must be encouraged to be confident.  They must have confidence in themselves to carry on the roles.  Right now, you are seeing, like I said earlier on in my presentation, some local police officers are taking a back seat and allowing RAMSI officers to do the duties.  Is it because of, as I said the wantok system or because of the attitude “that is what they are here to do, so let them do it”.  This kind of attitude, but they must have the confidence to do the work and be assisted in doing it.  I think that is the role that RAMSI should impart upon our own police officers to do their work effectively.  But as I said the confidence that the general public has on the Royal Solomon Islands Police to maintain law and order may be different from province to province and may be different from person to person as to how you are actually confident that somebody is maintaining law and order for your safety, the safety of your business, and for your country.  Thank you.

Mr. Johnstone:  I think we are generally on the same line.  When we see the security situation across the country getting better as well as the justice system, the courts are working well, government machineries are working, there is logistic support by the Mission and with the great help of the National Government, once all these things are in place may be they are good measures plus the important one, which is reconciliation.  I think once all those things are functioning normal then they are measures telling us that we are okay.  Thank you.

Hon Mua:  I think RAMSI is doing daily patrols on the streets of Honiara and has restored law and justice within Honiara.  As you are aware, Honiara was the centre of the major civil unrest and destruction, which resulted in a lot of losses.  RAMSI operates very well within Honiara and is maintaining law and order within the city. 
            Mr Chairman, the question talks about exit, yes there should be an exit strategy but not until stability and capacity building is completed here in Honiara City and maybe within the government and the country as a whole.  Thank you Chairman.

Hon. Wale:  I want to follow up on this thought and maybe specifically more for Honiara but the others can share their thinking on it because in a lot of ways Honiara is the centre of many of the issues and Guadalcanal as well because Honiara is on Guadalcanal.  We know, of course, as the Lord Mayor alluded to, conflict erupted here on Guadalcanal and in Honiara, and then we also have the 2006 April riots, and last year or this year there were some compensation demands, it just seems that the ingredients for violence is really alive and kicking yet.  This points to the fact that maybe those ingredients because they are still alive and kicking yet, threatening the order and our peaceful co-existence is still alive in the minds of many people.  From your point of view, as leaders but especially Honiara and Guadalcanal because they sensed it quite intimately, how would you measure the confidence level that needs to be seen on our own national security, national policing capability to be able to say “now is the right time that we can stand on our own and look after our own security”.  Thank you.

Hon Mua:  By looking at the Police Force, and as an ex-police officer, the Police Force is not a disciplinary force as it was before.  It is no longer disciplined as a disciplinary force like before.  
RAMSI has come in and has taken the leading role and now they are working as advisors.  The problem with our Police Force today is you and me.  We are the problem, the Solomon Islanders.  We don’t trust our own Police Officers to do the work that you and I want.  We seem to think there is nepotism within the Police Force.  If we have that attitude of trusting our police officers, I think RAMSI will be able to build a better force for us because they have everything in place at the moment for the Police Force.  But you and me, the people of Solomon Islands have to trust our own Police Force.  Right now nobody trusts our own Solomon Islander policemen.  We only trust RAMSI officers, not because they carry guns as part of their uniform but because we think they are foreigners and therefore will not take side on anyone but will be straightforward.  This has become a barrier between you and me and our local police officers.  We must get rid of that mentality so that we can build back a good Police Force, but if that mentality remains, it will remain and we will not trust anybody.  Thank you Chairman.

Hon. Wale:  I want to follow up a bit more, and this is a very rough question so don’t think hard on it but I’d like to ask you as an individual and a leader and the Lord Mayor of our city, the capital city on a scale of 1 to 10 trust on the Solomon Islands Police.  Your trust in the SIPF would be what number?  Number 10 is perfect, and number 1 is no trust at all.

Hon Mua:  I must be very careful on how I will answer that.

Mr Chairman:  That’s right. You don’t have to answer anything.

Hon. Wale:  I want to clarify why I asked this question.  It is an indication because capacity building in the police has been one core function of RAMSI and the PPF.  You have raised a key point, and that is our trust in our own Police Force to reflect the kind of work that has been done.  It will not be held against you but it is just an indication.  Anybody is entitled to their opinion on the question of trust.  I can’t force you to trust me.  That is my clarification but you are entitled not to answer it. 

Hon Mua:  Mr Chairman, I have very good police friends and ex-workmates in the Police Force.  The thing is, when I report a case to a police officer today, another friend of mine comes to me the next day and tells me that I report a case to the police yesterday.  This means nothing is confidential on things reported to the Police.  With that I don’t have trust.  Maybe I have 4% trust if that system still exists or maybe I have zero trust on him.  Because when I report a case to the police I don’t expect you to eat betel nut with another person and you tell him about the case because it is confidential.  But when I report a case to a RAMSI expatriate officer he never tells another person, but he keeps it confidential.  Thank you.  

Mr Chairman:  Obviously, there needs to be a lot of capacity building to be done.

Mr. Johnstone:  My comment would be that I have very big respect on the work of the Police because without them our country is at risk.  We are talking about the security of the country.  First of all, I would like to say that I acknowledge the work of the Police Force despite of their shortfalls.  My question is, if we don’t have trust on our Police Force, then what is happening to the so many training and logistic resources spent on our Police Force so far.  I will just say here that if that is what is happening then let us put more effort into our Police Force because we don’t expect RAMSI to stay here to run the country for a long time in terms of security.  I think that we must put more support into the Police Force and encourage them that we have a strong Police Force that is disciplined and living up to the expectations of the people of this country on security. 

Mr. Kiloe:  We cannot totally eliminate risks as they are always there, it is always there even before RAMSI came here and even when RAMSI leaves.  Even before the ethnic tension the risks are there, but the level that happened in 2000 to 2006 are very big events.  
It would take a while before people have confidence on our Police Force because of the involvement of Police Officers on the ethnic tension days.  If those things happen and the Police are not involved but they just maintain law and order during that time, I think confidence will quickly come back.  But because elements within the Police were also involved in the tension, and that is why it will take awhile before confidence comes back.  For example, in my Province, Police Officers are based in Taro, and it takes ages for them to go from the Provincial Centre to the next.  For me, in order for people to have confidence on the Police Force to handle the job and to respond whenever the need arises, they need to get closer to the people.  By that, based on capacity building, which I’d like to confine on law, order and policing, it is important to help out on staff housing of police officers because they are just human beings and if they don’t have houses to live in they will not be able to perform well.  That is the situation on Taro.  I would also like to think that the Police makes it a priority to have other police stations outside of Taro as well.  I would suggest police stations should be at Pangoe, maybe Sasamunga and Wagina, so that all around the Province is covered. 
Having said that, I am also disappointed with the performance of some of my Police Officers based on Taro.  I was hoping they will show good examples, but sometimes they are not.  It’s not only me that has realized that but other people too have seen it, and being a very small community everybody knows each other.  Therefore, it takes a while before our confidence comes back on certain Police officers who seem to be good and respectable when they are in uniform but when they are out of uniform they are somebody else.  Therefore, it will take a while confidence comes back.  May be one way to solve this is to shift officers from province to province so that whatever experiences they learn from a particular province can be exercised in another province.  Some of them almost spent 20 years on the same post, and so they become well known to people and so when our friends are naughty, the tendency being human beings is that we may not want to take them into account.  That is an issue we are facing in my province.

Mr Chairman:  Thank you.

Hon. Tosika:  This is not a question but a comment.  Since we are debating the Police, the Police Force is a disciplined force and police officers are disciplined persons.  With that understanding, only Police Officers apart from other organizations took oaths of allegiance to live their lives in support of any ruling government of the day. 
On capacity building of RAMSI, I think the discipline aspect of the Police should be taken over by RAMSI to reinforce the feeling of respect.  For example, I am the former Minister of Police, and at one time I took a ride to the Central Police Station and when I got there none of the Police Officers stood up to give me the salute of respect.  Everyone just sat there on the table.  Discipline is needed here, and therefore I think on capacity building of the Police Force, respect, discipline and ethics must be reactivated so that they are trained to be disciplined.  They must learn to respect themselves first before they can respect other people.  When there is no respect for leaders and others then they are surely going to step upon the poor man or the grassroots people down there.  I think is one of the areas that RAMSI needs to look critically into and support in terms of its capacity building to train police officers on discipline.  Thank you. 

Mr Chairman:  Do you agree?

Hon. Kengava:  I just want to be clear on this time frame or exit plan for RAMSI.  During your presentations today what I gathered is that all the Premiers have a mixed response on this.  Some of you want a time frame, others are in the middle, others are saying give them some more time. 
I just want to know that if RAMSI has no time frame or exit plan, will it not start causing resentment or dislike from people who may see RAMSI staying here for a very long time, becoming an obstacle to progress and the independence of Solomon Islands. 
If that is the situation, as Premiers of the Provinces knowing your people very well, how can we prevent such a negative development to come about because you want to keep RAMSI longer then what we might expect?  Thank you.

Mr. Kiloe:  In my case, I did not actually state any time frame and I don’t even say that we want to keep RAMSI even longer too because their stay here depends on certain goals that we must achieve.  If we achieve the goals earlier then they may have to leave earlier but if it takes time then it will take time.  That is why I expressed some goals that we think should be achieved. 
Definitely we can’t expect them to leave before all reconciliation ceremonies are made.  I feel that is very important.  If that is done tomorrow then the next day they can leave.  That is how I see it.  For me, there is no time frame, because if it is based on time say five years or two years and those things are not achieved and they leave, what are we going to do?  That is why we feel that RAMSI’s exit must be based on goals that we must achieve before they leave.  Again there might be some complacency sinking in because of no time frame and so they relax.  I mean there are two sides of the story.  
On our part to make it work, I think there needs to be consultation and knowing what are their roles and that is why they are staying.  For example, sometimes we are blamed for things that we don’t have the power to do or may be even the resources to do it or we don’t even have the legal mandate to do it.  Even the provinces and even we members too because have expectations that are outside of what we can do, not because we don’t want to do them.  We just come to them.  That is why I said consultation will minimize resentment of RAMSI.  We have to go back and explain to our people why RAMSI has to stay here longer.  There must be awareness talks held with people.  Other organizations must consult with us and work together with us on what they can do, what we want them to do and if they can do it or not, but I think consultation is very important, consultation between provincial governments, and our people in the rural areas; consultation between provincial government and the national government; consultation between provincial government and RAMSI or any other organizations. 
Having said that, there are also a lot of groups in the country now that didn’t even consult with provincial governments about their work.  It is the same, but we need consultations with stakeholders, NGOs and other funding agencies that go direct to people without having consultations with provincial governments.  It is very important that misunderstandings are minimized.  Problems come up just because of misunderstanding, and if we can reduce those misunderstandings we will get along very well. 

Hon. Kengava:  Mr Chairman, before the other two Premiers respond, the point I am trying to get at here is that within our society or within our community or country there will come a time when maybe certain people or groups of people may start to see negatively the length of time RAMSI stays in the country or a different group of people coming in to stay here.  Let’s be frank and take Iraq as an example.  The longer the Allied Forces remain in Iraq the people are starting to see them as obstacles to their independence.  In our case, and I want to raise this point because how can we prevent that from happening if we decide to keep RAMSI for another 10 or 20 years?  We must not take for granted that today we say keep RAMSI but we don’t know about tomorrow or next year.  This is an important issue that we must know and hear what your opinions and observations are.  What kind of development programs can we help our people in the provinces to be part of the partnership agreement to prevent such a negative development happening again in the country?

Hon Johnstone:  My opinion on that question is this.  Any resentment or negative thinking by the people on the Mission if they are going to be kept longer in the country, important stakeholders in the country are our leaders.  A country will rise and fall on leadership.  I would like to say that our leadership should take the leading role by talking to our people about the important work the Mission is still doing so that they can understand the need for RAMSI to be still here to complete the work it comes to do.  I believe once leadership starts to take a leading role in thinking negatively on the work of the Mission, then people will follow suit.  Before the general public or our people support the general understanding of RAMSI’s work, I want to point that out.  Secondly, anything to do with awareness, and that is why we are saying that consultation is important so that emphasis is put into that to go across the country. 
            Solomon Islands is a kind of country that does not have proper communication and therefore many people down in the provinces did not better understand the role of RAMSI and what it is doing in the country.  May be if areas like that are strengthened, it would help the people to understand better the work that RAMSI is doing in the country before it leaves.  My general comment on any strategy exit plan for RAMSI, I would say that it depends very much on the work RAMSI is doing and to put a time frame of say two or three years is risky for the country.  And here I would like to acknowledge a statement made by a member that people are sort of still in the kicking attitude in regards to issues of the tension, and so we allow RAMSI to properly complete its work before it leaves.  But our responsibility is to talk to our people in Solomon Islands about RAMSI’s roles and functions in the country and educate them so that they go along with our thinking.  Thank you.

Hon Mua:  RAMSI’s work is believed to be in early stage.  That is my belief.  RAMSI reacted to the immediate need of the civil unrest and restored order in Solomon Islands.  RAMSI now needs to consult to stabilize that initial effort to rebuild capacity for the future of this nation.  
            Yes, Mr Chairman, there should be an exit strategy but not until stability and capacity has been built to a degree that the Solomon Islands Government and people believe they are ready to take full control.  This, I believe, is longer term. 
            Mr Chairman, the position needs ongoing monitoring and review, and the Parliament is there to look at this.  As stated, RAMSI should remain until the situation in the country is stable and capacity is built.  A premature departure would not be good for our country.  It could lead to problems in law and order.  The Council believes that it is too early for RAMSI to leave.  I emphasized mainly on capacity building.  RAMSI has restored law and order.  They had built and strengthen the justice system in the country.  The machineries of government have to be strengthened.
            Like most of us complaining about money and government not delivering services down to provinces, may be because Customs is not collecting enough money.  There are loopholes, and that is why we need the machineries of government to be strengthened. 
            We complain about grants not reaching us on time.  This is because government does not have money to give to us.  We need that machinery of collecting money to be properly put in place. 
We need capacity building.  This is very important for any country to move forward, and whilst we have these people, who have the know-how, let us on them and get their experiences so that we can develop. 
Let us forget about Iraq and Iran who are fighting a live war but we have law and order.  Let us look at capacity and strengthen our government machineries.  RAMSI is strengthening government machineries. 
The City Council has ……. with us who are working to strengthen our capacity to provide more money for the Council.  We are looking at property rates, taxes, business licenses and other rates the Council needs to strengthen so that we can stabilize service delivery to the people of Honiara.  These are things we need.  Thank you.

Hon Tosika:  Lord Mayor, I understand that the Council has a small arm of police constabulary.  In your statement you said that you don’t have working relationship with RAMSI.  How best do you want to see RAMSI to work with you to support the needs of the Council?  Also what kind of relationship do you want to exist between you and RAMSI to improve service delivery?  I understand that Honiara City is made up of people of mixed races and people from different islands with different behaviors and because of that law and order is of paramount importance to the Council. 
I would like to know what kind of relationship you want to have with RAMSI in partnership in addressing law and order in Honiara City.

Hon Mua:  We have very good relationship with the Commissioner of Police.  We also have good relationship with RAMSI when it comes to cleaning up of the City.  RAMSI is very supportive of that, but we do not have direct relationship in regards to enforcement officers enforcing the Council’s bye-laws.  We actually did not have direct connection with RAMSI in that regard.  When we need assistance we go through the Commissioner of Police and the Commissioner of Police asks RAMSI to assist the Council on certain areas.  Thank you.

Hon Ghiro:  This question is on partnership, and partnership as we know is between RAMSI and the SIG.  How are you provinces going to be involved in this partnership? 

Hon Mua:  The question is for the Premiers, but I would like to respond first in regards to the Honiara City Council.  To my knowledge, apart from the information letter or the invitation for the inquiry RAMSI has not spoken with the Council.  Thank you.

Hon Kiloe:  I believe I have briefly answered that question earlier on.  But as you rightly said this partnership agreement is between the government and RAMSI, and the link of the provinces to this agreement would be through the government.  That is why we think it’s the government that needs to consult with the provinces so that we can discuss it.  I can go on to say that there has been some confusion in regards to policing in general in the provinces.  Some of us feel it is not a devolved function and so it is the role of the national government or the Ministry of Police.  RAMSI deals with the national government and our government should deal with us.  That is quite important for us to be clear on. 
            With this partnership agreement, we enter into the partnership through our national government.  Consultation is important here. 

Hon Johnstone:  I think it is the same thing that we in the provinces want to be an active partner in this agreement whether it be through the government, as stated by my colleague Premier for Choiseul or through any set up in here where provinces are directly involved in this partnership in order to strengthen it. 

Hon Boyers:  That is the question I was going to ask.  Listening to comments made by the Premier of Choiseul on justice and economic justice, and we know that provinces have to work through the Ministry of Provincial Government, there are sometimes limitations. 
I know in the past there was disagreement by some premiers because their provinces were not reflected in the national budget.  And what we are talking about is funds and capacity building process.  Unfortunately, the collective effort of all provinces is for more money.  If they get more money they would be able to provide better services. 
            The question here is on the legislative framework to be put together.  A lot of NGO’s have direct relationship with officers at the provincial level.  Would the provincial premiers want to have direct relationship with RAMSI rather than going through the Ministry of Provincial Government? 

Hon Kiloe:  It would be helpful to us, but it depends on RAMSI if it wants to work directly with us.  There are two ways to this, and it would be good if we have discussions with RAMSI or whoever, any other funding agencies/sources that would like to come and help our people.  At the end of the day whether it is the NGO’s or whoever but it is for the people down there, the grassroots people that we are concerned about.  Therefore whatever means that come must reach them.  What is actually filtered down to them is right for them and it does not bring the mentality of dependability on others but to support and encourage the provinces to learn how to help ourselves. 

Mr Johnstone:  I would also like to acknowledge any additional initiatives for assistance to get to the provinces.  You would realize that the work we are doing every day is living with the people, as I have stated earlier on today.  The level of provincial government is the level of the people and so the work load down there is far much bigger than the national level where I think many of them are just working in Honiara.  Because of the work load down there, it would be best if other stakeholders like the NGO, the national government, provincial government and RAMSI comes in to help, it would be of great help to the people.  Thank you.

Hon Mua:  Mr Chairman, I think the Premier of Choiseul has answered for both of us. 

Mr Chairman:  Thank you very much, and I think that is the end of it.  There are no further questions from the chair.  Premier of Choiseul, Premier of Renbell and Lord Mayor, thank you very much for your time in coming to appear before the committee. 

The sitting adjourns